Pushing North American Universities

@Aintnosupermum
Few US universities or educational charities give generous discounts to British kids. The competition is fierce at the few that do. The private universities do charge well in excess of $50,000 a year and bringing that down to $10,000 is virtually impossible. I looked for DD. We qualified for nothing. She got a small scholarship that barely made a dent. Often usa parents have no idea what the situation is for others. They are in their own bubble.

Yes. It’s mostly very rich people who could pay full fees anywhere. So why not go the USA? They will just buy a house there for DC and it’s no big deal. At our school it was nearly all overseas students who could afford to live and study anywhere globally. For ordinary folk, it’s a massive deal. Post grad is easier.

@Cantstandbullshit

I was clear in my post and said private college. $300k is about the ballpark cost. Tuition is about $50k per year and living costs will run about $25k a year because the student will need health insurance and renting in a safe area isn’t cheap.

Yes lower income families will qualify for scholarships at the schools with big endowments but smaller schools are not as generous.

You mention a social worker and I find it baffling as to why anyone wanting to go into such a field would want to study abroad. Same with teaching. I would think it advantageous to study in the country you plan to work in for such fields.

The public schools are a mixed bag. They have many more students and it’s very easy for the students to get lost. Rutgers is $30k a year. It’s a good school but I thought the fresh graduates from NYU, Seton Hall, Lehigh and Upenn were much better prepared. Seton Hall, being a catholic school is $30k a year tuition but the rest are all $50k annual ticket cost. Notre Dame is also an excellent school with lower cost as it’s a Catholic college.

Westpoint is also a good college and if you serve the GI bill will pay for post graduate studies. It’s not a bad deal if you plan to do a high cost course such as law or an MBA.

It’s not $300k minimum to study at a private university unless you decide to pay full rack for it.

There are many options for cheaper public universities and private universities also offer lots of scholarships and aids so it’s on you if you decide to go to a private school you didn’t afford with no aid or scholarship. Then you better make sure you have a plan to pay the debt by going into a career with high salaries.

www.cnbc.com/amp/2019/04/05/it-costs-78200-to-go-to-harvardheres-what-students-actually-pay.html

this shows the actual average amounts people pay at Harvard and it’s the same at other top universities. You also have many public universities offering cheaper or even free education for lower income families so people should be making sensible decisions. While there are a few areas where Ivy League degree opens more doors, in majority of career paths you will get good opportunities from cheaper universities as well. You can I sit Ivy League if you’re committed to careers like investment banking etc but to pay full rack for a private university and then decide to be a social worker is a dumb decision.

University of Illinois for example is a good public university and feeds into top employers in the Chicago and Midwest area and it’s free if you have a family income under $67k.

osfa.illinois.edu/illinois-commitment/

if you were to pay as a resident it’s $16k for everything which means tuition, room and board, fees etc. that’s cheaper than UK universities.

cost.illinois.edu/Home/Cost/R/U/Compare/12/120228/120228

Another misconception which you showed in your post is the average American is graduating with $100k student debt. That’s not true. I was trying to find a graph that shows the student debt broken by amount and I can’t find it but it showed that majority are under $40k. A small proportion graduate with $100k and above and those tend to be doctors lawyers MBAs etc who command huge salaries not under garage but as brits we think it’s undergraduate degrees. Yes there are some people who graduate with the $100k type loans for undergrads but it’s due to pore decision making to go to private universities with no aid or scholarships and it also tends to be poor lower ranked universities at that.

www.nerdwallet.com/article/loans/student-loans/student-loan-debt

in summary with common sense and applying restraint you can get educated in the US for cheaper and have a good career. You don’t need to go the popular party school your friends are going.

Your $300k for bachelors is just so wrong . That NerdWallet article shows the higher debt amounts are for doctors dentists etc not bachelor degrees and even doctors if you take into consideration that’s about 10 - 14 years of education you will see the per annum is lower than you think. That’s bachelors. Masters, residence etc.

I just feel there’s too many misconceptions about the US and so how we act like we understand and know it and keep repeating stereotypes.

The trend at many private schools is more DCs are going to North American universities over the last ten years. So now, the schools are featuring this. SPGS just sent 22% of the class to NA, more than double from just a few years ago.

I’ve been working in the Us for a while now. My experience of working with new grads is both countries is that the American colleges do a much better job of training their students to be able to perform well in a role post graduation. Yes it’s expensive, but it’s completely worth it if you go to a top 50 school and apply yourself accordingly to get a good GPA and stay in the US after until your loans are repaid.

It’s $300k minimum for a bachelor degree at a private college. Most graduate roles start at $80-100k. Americans spend so much more money on frivolous stuff it’s insane. It’s not a surprise that many spend 30 years repaying their student loans. When shops shut during covid everyone’s savings went up and debts were paid off.

I noticed this OP. Must admit that our first thought was “Christ! How will we afford that?”. We’ve saved into some accounts for university for both children but that assumes they’ll pay the equivalent of £9k a year.

Having said that, I think that the way university isn’t as specialised for undergraduates in the US is better for some. I was 15 when I chose my A levels and 17 when I chose my degree. Seems ridiculous now.

Don't forget that there's also foreign families looking at those same schools as you; if they think their child will pay international fees in the UK then the price difference with the US shrinks dramatically.

Thats a misconception that the US is not nuturing education in poor communities in the US. There are many many many programs and opportunities to get cheaper or even free education in the US but no matter what the government does you also have to be willing to take up the opportunities.

many states offer free education for low income households eg I lived in Chicago and the state offers free university education if household income is lower than $67k

www.admissions.illinois.edu/commitment?gclid=CjwKCAiAhKycBhAQEiwAgf19emKIs7vzVq_aERbWHqajWzEF-kt5lF5wwY9kaGEvj2k_3zufKeQvjRoC7ugQAvD_BwE

And many other states offer similar or other options so your generic statement is wrong.

Your example using dreamers is not the norm as dreamers are a very different distinct category hence why those colleges treat them as internationals to access more options that they will not be able to access given they are not citizens or permanent residents.

How much student debt will your new ogre graduate with and what will his starting salary be when he graduates?

Average student debt in the US is actually lower than the UK. UK students benefit from more favorable repayment plans under a certain income one level but when you start earning higher not anymore. And the student debt to starting income ratio is better in the US than UK.

If you’re on lower income you can go to state universities for lower or sometimes even free eg residents of Illinois can attend the state university for free if household income is lower then $67k so there are options. University of Illinois is good school. Yes it’s not Harvard but it’s still a good option to avoid high student debt.

www.admissions.illinois.edu/commitment?gclid=CjwKCAiAhKycBhAQEiwAgf19emKIs7vzVq_aERbWHqajWzEF-kt5lF5wwY9kaGEvj2k_3zufKeQvjRoC7ugQAvD_BwE

if you choose to go to an expensive private Ivy League school then make sure you get enough aid or scholarships to make it worthwhile or aim for high paying jobs. Don’t go to an expensive school then decide you want to be a social worker when we all know their Solaris’s are no that high.

If you are good at a sport you might get a sports scholarship and it is common for top athletes/rowers etc etc to get direct approaches from universities .

Sports can definitely help you gain admission to a top university, as witnessed by the recent college admission scandal and also the information revealed by the Harvard lawsuit. However, the monetary value of sports scholarships is often not great if your sport isn't football or men's or women's basketball. Rowing, tennis, diving, etc., are considered non-revenue sports and so have much smaller scholarship budgets.

I’ve not read the full thread but it is getting pretty common to apply to US or Canadian Universities certainly from the independent sector. I think we will see more of it now that the indie sector gets a smaller slice of the Oxbridge pie .

If you are at a very selective indie you have a good chance of picking up an academic scholarship . If you are good at a sport you might get a sports scholarship and it is common for top athletes/rowers etc etc to get direct approaches from universities . There are agents who can help on this and for some sports like my DDs there are sessions where you can have taster sessions with scouts/coaches from the unis . I know several inc my DD who have had direct approached from US unis because of their sport

I know several people who have successfully gone through the process and are loving it . But it is a minefield so getting the right advice is crucial . I think that is why it is mentioned a lot at open days - this is something the indie sector can more readily support . Saying that I do know successful applicants from the state sector too.

True, US universities are moving away from standardised testing requirements, which started last year due to Covid, but top top students looking at applying to top 20 US schools are submitting scores anyway as a differentiator and another benchmark. If you're applying to, say, Harvard and Stanford and you're not black/Latino/Native American AND first generation applying to college, it's probably good to submit a strong SAT score.

SAT. Plus of course the list of good citizen type things you need to have done. I’m not saying people shouldn’t try but it’s not a walk in the park to get a needs blind scholarship!

These top USA universities require entry tests and a whole lot of planning for uk students. It’s mostly privately educated students who go. Or sports scholars. I went to a Fulbright info day a few years ago and most people there felt their DC would get no help! Not good enough for Ivy League and elsewhere it was a massively expensive. So be brilliant or have deep pockets. Little available in between for uk students.

Colombia is needs aware for Internationals.

@knitnerd90
You still have to compete to get into one! Hardly easy!

The federal government caps undergraduate student loans at $31,000, of which $23,000 may be subsidized. That summary of the Penn article is rather misleading. If someone has more than that for undergraduate they have done so via private or PLUS loans.

As I said my oldest is in 11th grade and we are in this process. The Ivies tend to give very good packages (someone with a family income of $60K having massive loans doesn't make sense at all, there are a couple of Ivies that are less generous but they all typically meet need even if not all have abolished loans--and by "meets need" they should not be needing to take huge private loans).

There is a tier of universities in the US with very high tuition but much less generous aid programs, and they are not good bargains.

The Ivies have become conscious of undergraduate experience and I really would not say they are bad places to be undergrads. But I would always ask when touring about the percentage of classes taught by TAs or adjuncts. For what Ivies charge they can pay faculty to teach! Some large state universities are much more difficult but of course much cheaper. For student experience, small liberal arts colleges often offer the smallest classes and most student contact, but of course you have to weigh that against other concerns like what classes you want.

The basic rule is: if you are super bright and can get everything paid, needs blind, then it’s a great deal. If you have to pay full whack, it’s not! £50,000 a year is just tuition in lots of places. My Dd got a place at a private Art School in NY. We needed in excess of £250,000 to fund this. Just not worth it over £27,000 plus maintenance here. She got a small reduction for a scholarship. Don’t forget flights home either!

In other words. If you don’t get in “needs blind” stay here. Or be rich. Both DDs had Saudi friends who went but overall the numbers are still really small. Obviously Americans in London schools want American universities and have planned this from DC birth. The Brits, generally, have not.

Oh, it's worse than that KillingEvenings re social inequality being reinforced Ivy League kids get to borrow more for their Uni costs because the tuition fees are so high. American kids are expected to borrow the maximum available this is a core assumption in the financial aid packages. The amount available is partly % of the actual tuition. So very expensive Ivy League is heavily subsidised by public taxes in form of student loans & tax-payer funded grants.

International students obviously can't access those same (US citizen only) loans so get different fin. packages.

I read that only ~3% of Harvard undergrads come from the 20% poorest American households. The kids who get into Ivy League are already privileged & the system supports them to stay that way.

@KillingEvenings - it's the Ivy Leagues that have the most generous financial support. You can see why bright young people might choose to go given their opportunity to get an amazing education and graduate debt free.

If household income is say 30K ( the London average), how on Earth do they live in London if

1) They are not in social housing on subsidised rent
2) Living in very overcrowded private housing

Especially as half of Londoners rent either private or social landlords.

Agree. Although social housing is NOT subsidised, it is the private market that is extortionate unless you mean they receive housing benefit. There are people who under no circumstances want to rent their property out to people on benefits (I find this wrong) but have no choice. We live in a "cheap" area and have spoken to a few estate agents (one is a family friend) and virtually all their renters received housing benefit. The people on 100k won't be on benefits but can't make as many savings as many people would think.

Now, having read the Harvard aid page posted by a pp and also mentioned by another pp I am amazed that in the USA the Ivy leagues can pay for your tuition and accommodation for 50k! Of course you must be first class material to be accepted in the first place but compare this to going to Oxbridge. AND having to pay extortionate rent. I remember paying nearly £400 for a single room to be on the same tube line as my university 20 years ago! There was not even a wardrobe, the landlady still had her boiler in my room. She resented me cooking i.e. using her gas and turned the heating off when she worked and I need to study so I had to cover myself in blankets. Having accommodation paid for me would have been great! And there were virtually no fees for many people when I was studying.

1. They are not in social housing on subsidised rent
2. Living in very overcrowded private housing

Especially as half of Londoners rent either private or social landlords.