Pushing North American Universities

I'd add Vassar, Colby and Bates to that list. There are so many incredible choices. Almost all have fabulous accommodation for all 4 years and proper campus life.

Back to chime with @unici5 regarding the American liberal arts college experience. I have no personal experience of these colleges but know many who have come up through this system. Almost all if them loved their experiences and their institutions.

The academic staff are extremely well qualified. They have simply chosen to prioritise teaching over their own research. These colleges are where bright undergraduates can really be seen, heard and encouraged by their professors. Research experiences for undergraduates abound. (Of course such opportunities exist in American universities, also. But there are proportionately more of them, including undergraduate seminars and supervised independent study, at the good colleges.)

As @unici5 says, the networks and career support are fabulous as is the preparation for PG study. The only slight drawback I can think of is that top students do not have the opportunity to sample PG courses early, because there are none.

To her list, off the top of my head I would add Reed, the Claremont Consortium (Claremont, Scripps, Pomona, Pitzter (sp?) and Harvey Mudd), Mt Holyoke, Wellesley, Smith and Bryn Mawr for women, and Oberlin. There are at least a dozen more of similar calibre. However some on both of our lists may prioritise Americans for financial aid.

I agree a US education is more well rounded. This is also true at secondary level. I hope the government does actually implement the IB style reforms recommended by independent research. Things become too narrow far too quickly in the UK.

Yes. I made the point when this thread was new that of my 3 kids, one ivy, one Oxbridge one small New England liberal arts, the third is having by far the best educational and all around experience. I would urge anyone considering American universities to do some research and not discount Amherst, Williams, Bowdoin, Swarthmore, Wesleyan, Middlebury, etc. They offer fantastic all-round educations (undergraduate focussed, small classes), opportunities galore and ultimately have fantastic networks of alumni and contacts.

The U.K. is in a fairly perilous position and lots of parents would prefer their children are educated in the US. There are far more jobs over there that pay a very decent wage and offer a great standard of living. There are so many choices of uni in the US and they vary enormously. I'd take a small New England liberal arts school over just about any other choice. 4 years gives them more time to try different classes and most don't declare a major until the 3rd year. A US education is far broader.

@Postapocalypticcowgirl I agree with you except that 'widening participation' applicants are favoured.

Based on grades alone, independent school students make up a greater share of Oxbridge students than their share of top A-level grades (26%of top grades vs 30% of admissions). State school students in general are accepted in the ratio at which they apply relative to private school applicants. This is still less than grades alone would predict which is why more outreach is needed. Outreach (not tipping the scales) has been responsible for more qualified state school pupils both applying and being accepted to Oxbridge. Contextual offers exist only for foundation courses which are for only a handful of pupils that have been through true hardship at Oxbridge.

Other top universities in the UK do take a different approaches that sometimes do favour state school students to be clear. I am only taking about Oxford and Cambridge.

@expat96 I was confirming I agree with the others who responded to your post. It was already said on the thread before you posted that only the top Ivies primarily took this funding approach and that there were a variety of financial models used throughout the US that differed from this.

Given that was all already said, your initial post was a bit confusing regarding what point you were trying to make. I was just clarifying the position of the schools in question.

I don't think we disagree about anything in reality! No one every said it was all need blind schools or all Ivy League schools. The ability to offer financial aid in this way is very much linked to endowment size as already discussed up thread.

@LondonGirl83 I've looked at the college websites again and Brown and Penn have switched to debt-free. It doesn't appear that Cornell has yet, although they're starting to look rather lonely.

@LondonGirl83 I'm not sure why you write "the others are right." You imply that I am wrong. About what?

Nowhere did I write that Harvard is not need-blind. I specifically acknowledged that Harvard is one of the schools which offers full aid without loans. My assertion is that very few schools are like Harvard in this way, only about a dozen. AFAIK, Brown, Cornell and Penn are still considered part of the Ivy League and still include loans in their financial aid packages.

What are we disagreeing about? Do you believe that many more than a dozen US universities are both need-blind in admissions and offer all accepted students full financial aid packages without loans? Or do you believe that Brown, Cornell and Penn offer all accepted students full financial aid packages without loans?

Regardless of the merits of the US, top UK unis, and especially Oxbridge have had a real push towards systems which don't actively favour private schools as much as they used to. As such, for many private schools, in the last 10-15 years (and even more if you go back further) their Oxbridge numbers have gone down, so when selling themselves, they need something that looks impressive.

In a way, UK admissions are now the opposite of "needs blind" because students who get lots of widening participation points are often actively favoured.

Getting students into top US unis is impressive, and it gives a good impression to parents, when some of them may be expecting Oxbridge numbers to be higher.

Princeton is similar
www.princeton.edu/news/2022/09/08/princeton-will-enhance-its-groundbreaking-financial-aid-program

Yale also has a generous package though somewhat less generous and the details vary by university

finaid.yale.edu/costs-affordability/affordability

@expat96 the others are right. Harvard is needs blind and everyone who qualifies for aid will receive the aid they qualify for (its not a limited pot that runs out) and they have a no loan policy. They aren't unique as other Ivies operate in a similar fashion and it covers tuition, housing etc.

@3WildOnes yes, several PP have made that point. My point is that, out of over 100 schools which advertise that they practice need-blind admissions, only about a dozen actually meet the full demonstrated financial need of all students without loans. Harvard is one of them but, for example, half of the Ivies do not.

@expat96 Harvard are needs blind in that any one who is admitted who qualifies for financial assistance with receive it.

Not quite all as technically you may be able to get private or PLUS loans that are unlimited. They will normally expect you to take the full Stafford loan if eligible. However a few of the top universities, including Harvard, have a no-loans policy for students under a certain income level.

A lot of schools advertise themselves as practicing "need-blind admissions" but people should be aware that means only what it says on the tin, that financial need is not taken into account in admissions decisions. It does not imply that a school will provide a full financial aid package to all admitted students.

Furthermore, the vast majority of schools which meet the full demonstrated financial need of all admitted students will expect students to take out all loans for which they are eligible (federal, state, commercial) before they make up the remainder in grants (non-repayable aid).

Yes, Yale, Princeton, Harvard are all well endowed :)

Its become a contest amongst them-- they fundraise relentlessly!

DS is probably going to Princeton. They are also incredibly well endowed - $38 billion 😮

Yes, I am only talking about the top Ivies. Other universities operate differently and academic and sports scholarships are common place in the general US education system.

Harvard’s endowment is more than $50b! With funds like this you operate in a completely different universe.

DS was offered scholarships but these were not at Ivies. Typically less well known colleges (to a Brit) that weren't attractive to him.

Good explanation @LondonGirl83

I should say no scholarships in the British sense of the word only financial aid. Its not merit based just needs based aid.

All of the above applies to international students as well

There is a lot of misinformation on this thread.

An ivy league university like Harvard has fully needs blind admission and provides financial aid in the form of grants to all pupils admitted rather than loans. Once you've gotten through the general admissions process you will get whatever you are entitled to. The Ivy's have such large endowments the resources aren't limited which is why admissions can be truly needs blind.

There are no scholarships and financial aid is need not merit based.

When determining financial aid, the family's pension assets and value of the primary residence are not included. The majority (55%) of students admitted receive some form of financial aid and 20% pay nothing at all. The average parent contribution is only $12k. Up to about earnings of $150k the contribution is competitive with the UK.

college.harvard.edu/financial-aid

@XelaM Harvard and the other Ivies are clear that they do not do merit based UG scholarships. How could they possibly choose? Individual departments or schools may give some monetary prizes, and there are.various PG scholarships.

Possibly the 100% academic scholarship means 100% of tuition fees, or even 100% of all expenses if the financial parameters are met. You may well know this, but a number of Mumsnetters ask about academic scholarships to the Ivies every year, meaning merit based scholarships. It can be very confusing.