GCSE C grade students - unlikely to go on to A-Levels??

Realistically to do well at A level you need ability and graft. So 4s or 5s in themsleves don't give the full answer. If a kid slogs and gets 4s, he or she may struggle at A level and not get good grades. He or she may be more well suited to btecs etc., or a mixture.
Also some subjects in particular require higher grades. You couldn't do a level maths with a 4... Even a 5 would be a push.

I worry about T levels as they seem more restrictive in scope and more academic / exam focused.
There is a whole tranche of pupils who can do very well with practical based learning and continuous assessment but for whom exams just don't work. I worry they will end up with nothing.
Using Maths & English GCSE as an absolute gateway to level 3 qualifications is also a concern to me.

I think many students would be better served by the chance to achieve well on a BTEC than struggle with A levels. I get the impression there are still too many students going for A levels against their best interests because of snobbishness/ignorance about BTECs.

At my son's school, the vast majority of subjects require a pupil to have a minimum of a 6 at GCSE to get on the A level course and they need 5s for maths and english language regardless of the A levels being taken.
They might make an exception for a pupil they know if there were extenuating circumstances I suppose, but I know the admission criteria have been applied pretty ruthlessly in the past as the school is heavily oversubscribed - the majority of existing pupils and a lots from other schools in the area apply. I think the approach is a bit harsh to be honest. A friend of mine's DD who had been in the school since year 7 didn't get into 6th form last year because she failed maths, despite getting 7s in the arts subjects she wanted to do for A level. But I suppose if they publish criteria they have to stick to them or others who missed out would complain.
We had the 6th form info evening for current year 11s this week actually and most of the teachers did stress the big jump up from GCSE to A level and that pupils who don't get higher grades at GCSE would be likely to struggle. I've noticed they seem very keen to encourage pupils to take the A levels in which they are likely to get the highest grades, even if the mix of subjects doesn't seem entirely logical. It's very different to when I was at school myself when we were more or less forced to either do all sciences, or all arts. A friend of my elder DS recently did biology, chemistry and geography and is now at medical school - that would have been out of the question in my day.
I don't think the current system works terribly well here for pupils who are going to get mainly 4s and 5s. In our area, the local FE colleges have quite a good range of vocational courses for the less academic students and we have some excellent 6th forms that get very good A level results, but the kids with a raft of 4s and 5s kind of fall between the two. There's a few apprenticeships around, but not many, and a lot seem to end up going to the less good 6th forms and getting low A level grades, so not really that helpful to them. Given that it is now a requirement to stay in education or training til 18, I think there needs to be a wider variety of options. I did read that BTECs were possibly going to be phased out, which I think would be a big mistake so I hope it doesn't happen. I don't know much about the new T levels but they sound interesting.

It does vary slightly by subject. Durham would accept a Btec in my son's subject as long as it was accompanied by one A level in the subject being studied.

Will get you to uni if that's what you want

In the experience of posters here, do BTECs ect... hold the same, lesser or greater weight than A-levels in wanting to go into 3rd level education?

A mate of Ds2's did something other than A levels and is now at Loughborough uni with him on a competitive course.

I think BTECs won't get you into Warwick to do Eng lit but that's fair enough tbh (if A level eng lit was too hard then the uni course will be) but they will get you to if that's what you want

In the experience of posters here, do BTECs ect... hold the same, lesser or greater weight than A-levels in wanting to go into 3rd level education?

My son in his subject is not able to apply to Oxford, Cambridge, Manchester, Birmingham and Durham universities. That is all. For maths and science based subjects there are more universities where you can't apply with a Btec and of course it precludes anything medical.

In my experience, students already on BTEC courses tend to choose very similar courses at university in which case their results are more than enough for the course they’re choosing if that makes sense. They would probably struggle with a very selective or academic course but those aren’t the courses they’re going for anyway. However they can still get on to the well-respected courses in their subjects, usually ones with a strong vocational or practical element, for which BTEC will prepare them well.

BTECs aren’t really a route into any course you want but they are a good stepping stone for students who might not otherwise be able to access higher education.

Did he do A levels after re-sitting his maths or was he studying a different qualification to get to uni?

This is why it is so important to protect the Btecs that the government are hell bent on abolishing.

Ds got one Grade 8 in the subject he wants to study at university, 2 Grade 5's (maths and English), and 2 Grade 4's. The rest were 2's and 3's.

He is now at college doing a Btec in the subject he got an 8 in and is predicted DDD. He will be going to university next year (admittedly not RG but his offer so far is one of the more respected ex polys.)

I have a mixed view on this, DS 'wasnt allowed' to take maths a-level at his old school because of his GCSE grade but is now predicted a high B/low A. It was the teaching at the old school (and their assumptions about his ability) that prevented him from achieving. He needed some love bombing and confidence building - sorely lacking in some hot houses.

I suppose this is an example of the transformations that can occur alluded to above.

There may be some colleges that accept students with C Grade (4/5) GCSE's but with a few exceptions they are only likely to get Grades D/E at A level so if they just want to study the subjects for the love of them then that's OK but it won't lead to university entry,

Where as there are many of these students who take BTEC courses who then go on to achieve Distinctions and Merits opening up a wide range of university courses.

So really it's about what is best for the student and their liklihood of success.

To be fair @RedskyThisNight most people have said that there may be circumstances which would alter the case.

And FWIW I agree re a student being prepared to with hard making a difference. DS2 did no work and got 6 in Spanish, and if he had wanted to do A level (no way!) then his teacher would have needed to see evidence of commitment imo.

I also agree that GCSE grades don't define you, and I know lots of people who didn't do A levels post 16 and are now at uni.

To be fair tho, the op is talking about a student whose ability level is 4/5 at GCSE, so I think the responses are valid.

"Why" students have got a 4/5 is also important. If this was the result of concerted hard work across secondary school then it suggests the limit of potential.

If they'd coasted through secondary school, made minimal effort but were now showing a greater level of maturity that suggests they will approach 6th form study differently - that's a different question.

And of course many students have personal reasons why they underperform at GCSE.

All 4/5s are not created equally.

Many adults return to A Level or higher education study after doing abysmally in their GCSEs. Not getting a C at GCSE does not define your future.

This report makes interesting reading:
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/183942/DFE-RR195.pdf
e.g. Spanish. Entering with a C at GCSE, less than 25% got above a D at A level.
Remember also that a levels are no longer modular and mainly don't have step offs at AS.

I have before now had students get two A grades after coming to me with 4s. Not uncommon, at all for them to gain C grades and not uncommon for a 6 to become the same.

They would be the exception rather then the rule. The advantage of a student applying for 6th form at the same school they have been at since age 11 would mean that the teachers know them and would recognise their potential.

It would be a different kettle of fish if they were applying elsewhere and the college would just see a list of exam results without knowing why they underperformed.

As far as I am aware, you can get 4s and 5s in some subjects to go on to A Levels but you need to get at least a 6 or 7 in the ones you want to continue at A Level.

I wouldn't go A level route if my child achieved 4s. In fact that's exactly my son and no point putting him through the stress of scraping by with D or lower at A level - i suppose there is the odd exception who suddenly blossomed at 16. For my son we explored what his interests were outside the classroom and his personality and it was pretty obvious the vocational route he should take. At a later date he could always do an access course if he decided to go for a degree or further education.
My daughter on the other hand did very well and moved to a more academic sixth form - requirements were minimum 7s or 8s for A level choices plus an exam as she was an external candidate. The reality is that most of her classmates got 8s and 9s in their subjects they went on to do at A level.
Both went to a non selective independent school which got good results considering the ease of entry, and even there it was a 7 to do an A level subject unless extenuating circumstances.

I have before now had students get two A grades after coming to me with 4s. Not uncommon, at all for them to gain C grades and not uncommon for a 6 to become the same.

Maturity, undiagnosed learning needs and all sorts of other issues make such a difference. There are so many adults who have gone from poor literacy to degree or from failed GCSES to degree. It’s important to see the child not just the grade. I wouldn’t teach A-level at anywhere overly selective as you miss out on some of the really transformational outcomes. That said the whole maths / physics difference and need for flatting grades is very true.

In my DCs’ non-selective school you can get into sixth form with 4s, but most subjects specify a minimum of a 6 or 7 at GCSE to do the a-level.

I'm one of the people that you have probably read saying this, and I stand by it.
There are some graphs out there of likely a level grades based on GCSE grades and C grades are really not a good indicator that A levels will result in anything higher than Ds. Of course some people will outdo that, but the odds aren't good.
If you haven't mastered the skills / revision / work ethic to get more than a just--pass at GCSE, why would you expect to succeed at A level? (Extenuating circumstances excepting of course.)

There are some great BTECs out there that prepare students for work in more specific industries, and if you do well enough you can still go to uni based on them to progress in the same field.

It may depend on the subject but a 4 is a low grade for A level.

My DCs school asks for 6s, may accept a 5 if there is good reason. Maths A level with a 6 will be a struggle. My subject is MFL and I would be wary of anyone with a lower grade than 7 tbf. A 6 at GCSE MFL indicates that verbs and vocab are not really secure and those are an essential start for A level.

It may be different fir modular subjects that don't specifically build on previous knowledge (history, eng lit maybe, new subjects like sociology) but even there it will be tough with 4/5 grades, unless of course there is some reason such as illness, and those grades don't represent the student's true ability.