11+ or 13+ for boys

@WombatChocolate some excellent points made by this poster in their recent post. They've summed up the issues very well (I suspect they work in education!).

Also a very valid point about three year GCSE options. One of my child's senior schools does exactly this which does mean, as the poster says, that students who've opted to stay at Prep for year 8 literally have to take their GCSE options having never met the teacher who will teach them for the next three years, or used the facilities in that subject at GCSE. So those teachers are completely unable to advise parents and students whether the child is a good fit for their subject at GCSE! In my opinion that is madness and a very good reason all on its own to avoid 13+ entrance if the senior school does the three year GCSE. (More are going that way due to increased demand of GCSE workload recently). Yes the prep school history teacher will tell their year 8 student they should do history...but that teacher won't know the GCSE syllabus used by the senior school in that subject and may never have taught the subject above year 8. And what about things like business studies that the senior school students will have trial lessons or assemblies on during year 8? The prep year 8 child won't be able to attend those and therefore won't be fully informed.

As I said, when my children were in middle school I was completely sold on them staying at prep til 13+.

My research led to them leaving at 11+ instead. In one case, this was overwhelmingly the correct decision and they are now thriving at senior school in a way I really don't believe they would have if they'd stayed at the Prep. Another child would have been ok with either option in theory but would have likely struggled to break into established friendships at 13+.

I agree with the previous poster that most children should move at 11+, with some exceptions, especially those for whom the senior school starts at year 9. I know the majority of those who had to stay onto year 8 for this reason at our former Prep would have moved at 11+ if only their traditional senior schools had started accepting students at that age.

CE is a funny thing. In the last, it served the purpose of an assessment vehicle for senior schools and a motivation to schools and students to keep working hard. Those doing CE often achieved a higher level of factual knowledge, although less skill-based learning than perhaps most senior schools were using as they geared up towards GCSEs.

So CE came to be seen as a bit old fashioned in terms of its content heavy focus, plus as more schools took students in at 11, less did it. Additionally, as more and more 13+ schools pre-test in yr6, CE came to no longer serve its original purpose. Students already had their offers. CE could be used to keep schools and students motivated, but if it didn’t determine who got places of entry, then it often felt a bit pointless, especially as lots of senior schools increasingly ignored it or didn’t want to have anything to do with it - it was them after all that marked it and they did t want to if it served them no purpose.

So some Preps kept going with CE anyway because they had to teach something, and other ps have adopted a new curriculum for Yr7 and 8 which is perhaps more like the senior schools teach and involves more skills and and a bit less content than before….something more modern.

The question becomes, what are Preps actually doing and offering? What are they prepping for in Yr 7 and 8? Really, it’s not prepping for senior entry exams, as these have already been taken and places offered. Is it about offering leadership and extra curricula opportunities of being a big fish in a small pond? Yes, you can be a Prefect etc as a Yr7/8 in Prep which you can’t when you’re the bottom of the senior school. Is it about staying young and being kept away from the older kids and the influences that some might not like? Is it about giving them longer to be younger and especially if they aren’t so mature, to enjoy more time as children?

Yes, the latter things are delivered by good Preps.

On the academics, teachers in Preps can be really good and can deliver senior school level education. Some teachers will have taught in Senior schools but most haven’t. The Prep teachers might be more tuned into 11-12 year olds and as they are top of school, might make them their priority. On the other hand, teachers in Senior schools arelikely to teach GCSE and A Level and so perhaps are more attuned to gearing up kids towards public exams which are coming next. However, the Yr 7 and 8 might not be their highest priority as the ‘little ones’ but instead the exam classes more their key focus.

In the end, I think the key is recognising changes that are happening and also knowing where your lcoal Preps and Senior schools fit within those. I agree that entering Senior school when most do is worth it for most, although as PP say, there are a,ways children who don’t fit the norms and you have to know your child. What is certainly the case is 13+ Preps will want to keep you. They will emphasise what Preps can offer in terms of leadership opportunities and finishing a full Prep education before moving on. They will play down the current trends towards 11+ entry and of course, their survival as 13+ rather than 11+ schools relies on parents continuing to choose to stay on.

If you think your child would benefit a lot from stating I the smaller environment and they’re not ready for Senior school for a range of reasons, it might be a good choice. As you say you’re looking at day and not boarding schools, unless your child needs to remain in the smaller and younger atmosphere, or unless the fee increase is important for you to avoid for another couple of years, I’d say most (notice not all) children in most areas now, do well to move on at 11. It’s what most are doing and the direction of travel, and you can choose to go against the trend, as there are still both options, but will be in the minority in many senior schools if you do. Again, it’s thinking g about what will it be like in Yr9 and 10, rather than just what will it be like in yr 7 and 8 that’s key.

And on the GCSE options issue, lots of independents do a 3 year GCSE…that means they choose their options in Yr8, which for those in Prep means choosing before they even arrive and have been taught by the senior school staff.

As previous posters have said, many of the differences between 11+ and 13+ transfer are a double-edged sword and depend a lot on the individual child in question.

A good prep won't mollycoddle Y7s and 8s, but will gradually foster more independence and personal responsibility. Yes, plenty of children will be starting to outgrow a prep by the end of Y8, but moving on to senior school more than ready for the transition to the next stage isn't necessarily a bad thing (and may be better than moving too young and being overwhelmed by the change).

DS1 did find that some of the work in Y9 repeated the CE curriculum (particularly in Latin, which was covered almost up to GCSE level at his prep), but this was an advantage - it meant that he could focus on settling into a new school, finding his feet in a new peer group, getting used to a much larger campus, trying new sports and clubs, etc in Y9 without the added pressure of struggling with the academic work as well.

@11or13

I know what you mean about wanting to keep them young, I really do. And mine haven't suddenly become yobs overnight by moving them at 11! But the gap in between those who've been pampered and pandered to at prep school and those who went to senior at 11 does mean that some children who go in at 13+ struggle to break into the established friendship groups even more when they haven't got a clue what TikTok is or if they still play eg Minecraft when their new classmates are into older games.

I was advised to avoid CE when I read some older posts on mumsnet when I was struggling with this same issue. If I recall correctly, it's a pain in the arse to do CE....they have to revise and sit exams etc when their compatriots at senior schools won't have to have the pressure of CE at that age. Don't be fooled into thinking that only those who've done CE have that essential exam experience....all senior schools have end of year exams every year precisely to prepare students for the fact that GCSE exams will need revising and prepping for.

Also CE is a double edged sword....yes those who've sat it and passed with great marks and often ahead of those other students in year nine when they go to their new senior school. However this isn't necessarily the amazing asset you might think....the new senior school (unless it's a senior school that is academically challenging or one which only accepts at 13+ and requires CE certain marks to enter) will cater for a wider range of abilities than the very top ten per cent of those who've just got As at CE. So the students end of repeating work! Sometimes for much of the whole of year nine. And face disengagement as a result. Our prep banged on about how all their students were a year or two ahead when they went off to local non-academic privates, which was about 80 per cent of them. What they didn't say is that those 80 per cent then had go repeat whole years while the rest of the cohort caught up because moving Children up year groups isn't done anymore and even if the new school has sets (some don't , the fashion is to teach in mixed ability groups) then the top set teacher won't have the inclination to keep giving new students extra work every week for a year. My child has just disengaged with French for this very reason.

Finally at our former prep the former year eight students fed back to me that the teaching of new stuff stops about spring to summer term of year SEVEN. And then it's all exam prep, exam revision for the CE from then on in. Those of them that didn't actually need it found it extremely frustrating, and Boring to have to constantly relearn and revise stuff and do practice papers for lessons for almost a whole year for an exam that only two of their whole cohort actually needed. More and more senior schools, including some very famous and demanding ones are, I found, dropping CE in favour of year six online exams and then an entrance programme of their own.

Hope that helps.

DS1 left his prep at 11+, had a very rocky first 2 terms at his new senior school, and ended up going back to his prep half-way through Year 7. He sat 13+ exams for different schools in Year 8, and had a much smoother transition to his second senior school. Looking back, he says now that he thinks he would have been fine at his first senior school if he’d gone there in Year 9 instead of Year 7, because he would have been more mature. His current school does have its main intake at 11+, but then takes 2 new classes at 13+ so there was a decent cohort of new joiners alongside DS1. He didn’t need to choose GCSE options until quite late in Year 9 so there was plenty of time to experience new subjects and for teachers to get to know him.

Doing 13+ entrance exams in Year 8 did feel a bit precarious – unlike 11+ we didn’t have the “safety net” of staying on at prep if DS1 didn’t get a place. However we did have a much clearer idea of the sort of school that would suit him best, and feel that where he’s ended up is a much better fit than the first senior school he started at in Year 7. He also developed a lot academically in Year 7 and 8, and the school he goes to now is much more academic than the school he moved to at 11+. Socially, the transition in Y9 was fine, though it helped that DS is very outgoing and has a lot of experience meeting and working with new groups of people through his involvement in an extracurricular activity.

We’ve had a very different experience with DS2, who stayed on for Year 7 and 8 at the same prep and sat pre-tests for 13+ entry in Year 6. Receiving offers from pre-tests has meant we’ve had a lot longer to decide which school to accept, but has also meant more guesswork in the decision process - we’re trying to predict which school will suit the person he’ll be in 2 years’ time rather than what would suit him now.

I disagree that time in Y7 and 8 at a prep is not academically useful. Academics at our prep are sufficiently strong that DS1 found he was comfortably ahead in a number of subjects when he joined Y9 at his current senior school.

Your pros and cons list is excellent OP.

I also think if you have a bright and sociable 13 year old it'll be fine to move at 13+ but most kids worry about the possibility of being able to break into established friendships groups.

Also keeping them at prep keeps them artificially young; in my experience they are nurtured so such a degree that they are quite babyish and immature compared to their compatriots who moved to senior school at 11 and have therefore had two years of a more grown-up approach to education and are therefore ahead of kids coming in at 13+. This can make breaking into established friendships even harder.

Most kids I know who stayed at prep were over-ready to change to senior school by halfway through year seven or beginning of eight. This has led to some behavioural issues in some as they strive to be treated in a less pampered way.

I'm sure others won't agree with me but this has been what I've seen and experienced.

I was absolutely sure mine were staying at prep til 13. I was then advised to avoid CE if at all possible (hardly any kids now actually need it for their next school and I think it will be scrapped within a few years). I was also advised to look at the next school and make the decision based on the majority of their intake...if the majority go at 13+ then do that, but if the majority go in at 11+, choose that.

The other thing your list misses out is that if you move at 11+ then the teachers and students have two and a bit years to get to know each other, and for the staff to know the child's strengths and weaknesses. This is critical for GCSE options which take place Jan/Feb of year 9. If you wait til 13+ then there is only one term to get to know the child in the subject and it's not enough time for many.

I do believe prep schools year seven and eight are becoming quickly outdated and unnecessary for all the above reasons. I certainly don't regret moving both mine at 11+ ...for one of them moving them at 13+ would have been detrimental due to the GCSE options issue. For the other one, he would have been ok staying til 13+ but many of his friends from the prep school suffered from doing so.

Unless your destination school/s require CE year 7 and 8 are less usefully spent at a prep. Increasingly pretests take place early (year6/7) for deferred 13+ places, only some of which are conditional on CE. Ime numbers staying are dwindling and CE becoming less relevant. For Inter school sports , for example, it can be difficult to find prep schools to put up teams against and match levels. Having said that it can be better socially in smaller groups but these tend to stick together if they move on to destination schools together rather than integrate.

I think the reason lots of parents are now more keen on 11+ is because they worry about ‘missing the boat’ and fewer places being available at 13+.
Lots of schools want 13+ candidates to do a pre-test now in Yr6 anyway, so the advantage of not having to sit exams until yr8, that many felt was good for the more immature boy is now lost anyway. They feel that if they’ve done the exam and got a place, they might as well go. Prepping for the exam leads to people thinking about senior school sooner. The fact they have to choose schools sooner in order to apply and do the exam, also pushes parents who might have ambled along and not wanted to think about it so soon, get focused more quickly and as they focus senior options, their interest and focus on Prep becomes less.

For schools which let kids sit the exam still in Yr8, many parents now feel it’s too late and there isn’t a ‘second date at the cherry’. They might feel there’s no certainty until it’s late in the day…and people don’t like that, especially if lots of places have already been given to 11+ candidates or to 13+ candidates who took a pre-test.

So lots of things are working against 13+ entry, especially in senior schools which are all day-based or have a boarding element but an increasing number of day pupils.

And FWIW, I knew lots of people making these choices about 3 years ago. They made different choices and all if the kids are now at senior school. No-one regrets going the 11+ route, but several who chose 13+ wish they hadn’t. They felt their kids spent the last years in Prep just waiting to move on and catch up with their friends who had left, and that breaking into friendship groups and teams in Yr9, into what was an established cohort was just difficult. Some managed it well, but others felt that even by Yr11 they were the ‘new boy’. A couple of these parents then sent their younger kids at 11 instead of 13 and preferred it. Of course the downside is the fees at senior school are usually more!

I would base this on what the majority entering the chosen senior school do, and also factor in the direction of travel in the current Prep.

The general direction of travel for senior schools which aren’t 13+ only boarding, is towards 11+ entry. Senior schools can have more certainty about entrants and also get 2 more years of fees. Day schools and even lots of boarding schools, especially girls’ schools are taking bigger proportions at 11 and reducing or dropping their 13+ entry. There has been a significant shift in the last 5-6 years and this direction of travel is going to continue. This is why so many Preps have dropped their Yr7 and 8 or are in the process of looking to do so in the next couple of years.

Prep school year 7 and 8 is in free fall downwards for most schools. Once numbers get below a certain point, it’s hard for the schools to mainatain an academic staff capable of teaching senior curriculum, field enough teams and make it an attractive proposition for parents. Even though lots of Preps and parents are committed to the idea of being a big fish in a small pond and the benefits of being the top of a Prep school, they just can’t deliver it. When the chosen senior school takes in at both 11 and 13 and especially when a Prep feeds into that senior at both points, those remaining in the Prep, whilst knowing friends who’ve gone off to the Senior, often feel left behind and as if they are treading water and just waiting and being left behind. This is especially the case now so few schools use Common Entrance in a genuinely meaningful entrance based way. Most kids have had their offer if senior school in Yr6 based on either the school’s own exams or ISEB and so the academic push to do well in Yr7 and 8 is lost. It’s a bit like trying to run yr 10 and 11 without GCSEs or knowing your results before you start the course.

With any school you’re interested in, be very specific in your questioning to the Prep and also the your preferred senior school about those remaining at Prep in Yr 7/8 and a numbers taken into the senior at Yr 7 and yr9. If a school take 120 at 11 and then 20 ir less at yr9, those yr9s really will be the minority and will be fitting in with what has already been established. This is more the norm now. The odd school will take a few at 11 and majority later and in this situation, it can work well.

So consider how your DC will feel staying at Prep when X amount head off to the next stage. Absolutely think about what will work for them in Yr 7 and 8 itself (this is where Preps sell the 7-8 experience well) but also what it will be like in Yr9 - either as an established student in the senior already, ir as a new student.

It all depends on the numbers staying on and the proportions taken into the senior at different levels. When digging into this, ask too about plans to adjust these ratios or expected direction of travel with it. In another 2 years, even more might be taken in at 11 and the remaining Yr7 and 8s in Prep schools be even smaller than now. Personally Inwoukdnt consider remaining at any prep that couldn’t fill 2 decent sized classes for yr7 and 8 and field a decent range of at least A and B teams. Senior schools will be bigger, so you really don’t want to be experiencing the phase before in a year group significantly smaller than experienced at yr3-6 I’d think.

If you’re in a Prep which feeds and sends almost everyone to 13+ Boarding it’s a different story, however, there are few schools that do this as their main thing now in reality.

We transferred from state primary so didn't have the option of 13+ (I guess we could have done two years in prep, but we never considered that). We found that 11+ worked really well for DS. His school takes roughly even numbers at 11 and 13, and I think he found joining at 11, in a smaller cohort, quite a gentle experience. Not relevant to you, but it also meant there were some others from state primaries joining (there would have been none at 13). DS is quite emotionally young for his age (v academically able, but zero street cred!). I think it was good for him to do the whole 'starting secondary school' thing while all the kids were still pretty young. That meant, by the time the 13+ cohort joined his year (some of whom seemed so much older than him - 13 going on 16!), he was already settled and confident at school. My feeling is that he would have found it harder to hit the ground running at 13. Also, to be honest, he loves the school so much that I'm glad he's having the longest possible time there - the years go by so quickly! Particularly as it's easier to take advantage of the extra curricular activities before he hits the exam years.

But I imagine this is all very dependent on what your child's like, and what your prep school's like.

@11or13 , I don't think you will find an answer re your dc easily because all the secondary schools are great at settling in dc so if you go at 11 or at 13 you have a good time. The interview process means they all weed out disruptive or arrogant dc from the intake.
Re prep schools, around the Richmond Kingston area it's Tower House/ Kings House and Shrewsbury House that are left with the 13+ route and schools
like Twickenham Prep/ Newland House that will eventually have to give up on 13+ as The Mall as done.
You may do best to talk to current parents at your school who have older dc who have moved on to get a more accurate picture.

Hey, yes we are still in the private sector but we are lucky that his school is close by (and was also our favourite). As it’s local we didn’t see any benefit to staying on at his prep.
His prep school may stop catering for years 7 and 8 depending on how many stay this year and the mall also dropped their year 7 and 8 recently.
One thing I would say, is that I have friends who missed out on Hampton 13 places when they sat for it at 11, but they were then contacted by the school to resit the exams in year 7 and have been offered places now at 13. So if you are thinking of Hampton , this could be a good tactic.

@11or13
This is a really interesting post. Would you be able to share the odds at 11 and 13 for some of the SW London schools. I'm particularly interested in Dulwich, Ibstock, Hampton, Reeds, Epsom and St Johns.

Also at 13, yes there are less applicants, but usually less places as well. For instance my sons school takes 65 at 11 but only 10-15 at 13 . So it’s worth asking your favourites schools how many they take in each year group and work out your odds from there

SW London here too. We chose 11 for our son but purely on the basis of distance. The secondary school he has gone to is local and his prep was quite alpha (which he definitely isn’t) so he is thriving away from that environment.
We did have 13+ choices for reeds, St. John’s and St. George’s but purely on the basis that they are further away and will make for a longer day and journey which he would be better equipment for at 13.
For us, as he was going fairly local, there was no reason to stay and at his prep and less than 10% of the year chose to stay until 13 which makes it quite tricky for team sports

Presume the odds of entry will be far better at 11 vs 13.