Anybody know how large the cohort of native speakers is for A level French?

Isn't the problem that people approach education/exams like a game where points are won rather than to learn. As long as it is seen as a game people will use whatever is at their disposal to win points.

I find it a bit odd that you would want to study it as a native speaker when surely most courses are geared at non native speakers.

We have quite a few at my school who do a fourth A level or GCSE in their native language - often Urdu or Polish and do really well.

It pissed me off no end that there were native speakers doing a language at my university that the rest of us were doing an initio. But, one of them got a lower grade than the rest of us because while the language was a doddle, she didn’t do well at the history or literature aspects despite having a massive advantage. There will be an element of that at a-level as well. GCSE tends to be much more limited to the language only.

[quote GrandmasCat]@Dontlookdownmuch I guess it depends. A CV is easier to correct as is short to read and it would also depend on what the job in offer is. I draw my conclusions from reading university essays both as a student and as a tutor. But doesn’t mean that is always the case but it happens.

I remember a group of native English speaking students laughing at me because I used the word “rustic”, then the tutor pushed it further by correcting me saying that the word “rustic” didn’t exist in English language. But again, it depends on the environment. I have had that sort of correction where language literacy levels are lesser, ie. when studying a science undergraduate degree but not while doing a humanities postgraduate.[/quote]
Sure but I was referring to the covering letters to the CVs.

Native speakers just have an advantage for the oral but not for the written.

I teach MFL A-level and, although a lot of near-native speakers choose it, speaking fluently is no more a guarantee of a top grade than being an English native speaker is of a 9 at GCSE Eng Lang.
They tend to do well on the listening and reading but need to learn the skill of learning vocabulary to access the highest marks in both the speaking and written papers. Informal, home-life linguistic register will secure a B but they need to work hard for the A. The ones who find it easiest will be those who have studied within the French system until 14+; those who were there as young children, or who have a parent who speaks the language, will find it a lot harder than the rest of the world gives them credit for. And remember that there are many, many degrees of "native speaker"

My daughter got top grade for German for GCSE and she only started it in y9. French seems to be a common one for native speakers, but I don't think that precludes non native speakers getting top grades if they deserve them.

My dd1/2 both got A in French A level without much travel or experience in French and both have carried it on at uni.

My nephew did A level French and Spanish. He got a B in both. He's now studying French and Spanish at uni. He's never been to France or Spain and none of us in the family speak French or Spanish.

@Dontlookdownmuch I guess it depends. A CV is easier to correct as is short to read and it would also depend on what the job in offer is. I draw my conclusions from reading university essays both as a student and as a tutor. But doesn’t mean that is always the case but it happens.

I remember a group of native English speaking students laughing at me because I used the word “rustic”, then the tutor pushed it further by correcting me saying that the word “rustic” didn’t exist in English language. But again, it depends on the environment. I have had that sort of correction where language literacy levels are lesser, ie. when studying a science undergraduate degree but not while doing a humanities postgraduate.

I did MFL at A level and Uni. The native speaker on my A level course got a C to my A. At University my confidence was dented by bilingual students. I wouldn't let it put you off though.

I did French and Spanish A Level, not a native speaker of either and neither of my parents speak them. I got A grades in both and went on to study Spanish at Uni, picking up Portuguese from scratch alongside it, and got a first. I wouldn’t be concerned about native speakers skewing the grade curves.

I did German and French for A'level - a long time ago now - but I had only ever briefly been to France aged about 14. I didn't take languages any further but still love them. We had penfriends arranged through school (don't know if that's still a thing) and a German language assistant who we would have conversation classes with.

At GCSE, there were a few bilingual English/German speakers in our class and none of them got the higher grades or carried on to A'level.

I meant to say there that we didn't have much time abroad other than one or two school trips, and maybe holidays for some people, but we got that "spontaneous Spanish" from the teacher.

I actually used to sometimes babysit for a South American couple so used it there too, and watched some films/tv in Spanish as well, now I think back.

I think it depends who the teacher is to be honest. In my year, I think 8 or 9 pupils took Spanish A-level, and we all got As or A*s. No native speakers.

A native speaker as a teacher though, and everything apart from grammar was taught in Spanish. If you met the teacher in the corridor she'd expect you to answer in Spanish and we used to have "conversation classes" as well, where you'd learn a lot of new words and phrases.

@Dontlookdownmuch @GrandmasCat I would agree with much of this. I studied in Spain for 2 years and I took a Spanish grammar class and got a better grade than many in the class in the final exam. Some of them were really mad about it. The tutor explained it’s because we’ve really had to concentrate and study to learn Spanish grammar and spelling. In English, it’s like some people who say ‘I done my homework’ instead of ‘I did’ or ‘I have done’. Then the difference between who’s and whose etc. Many people don’t know the difference and have a habit of speaking or writing without really knowing or understanding the grammatical rules and it becomes habit.

I did French and Spanish and got an A in both. I’m not a native speaker of either language. For Spanish I got 97% - I used to try and speak to people I met on holidays and kept in touch with them by instant messenger. I also used to watch films in Spanish. I went on to study languages at uni.

My point is that there are things your daughter could do to improve her language skills and I don’t think she should worry about not being a native speaker of French.

[quote GrandmasCat]@TheAntiGardener
It not a joke for native speakers to take an A level, many of them do because their parents understand their bog standard state primary school in the UK (or any other country) is not teaching them to read and write in their native language. Or do you think your kids write and read English well just because their parents speak English at home? You may think the hours so many teachers spent teaching these skills to your kids are worthless unless you believe your kids are genetically programmed to develop literacy skills by osmosis

Interestingly, it is often the case that at university level, overseas students who learned English as a second language have a wider more advanced vocabulary and better writing skills than the average English person.[/quote]
My experience is that at degree level the native English speakers will have better written English than those who are non native speakers - I base this on reading countless covering letters to CVs.

I did A level French and German back in the day when A was the top mark. I got As in both. I had no French or German friends or relatives, and had never even been to either France or Germany or Austria.

Encourage your daughter! As others have said, it's all about effort.

As a languages teacher, I agree about lazy native speakers taking their own language - emphasis on lazy rather than native speaker. I have known more than one French candidate who thought it would be an easy A and tried to get by on shrugs and eh, bien.

I also worked with Chinese pupils who did Chinese A level to boost their UCAS points. Some schools accept this but others don't. For these pupils, often they had lived mainly in UK since a young age so they did have to work and prepare the topics. They had not had the constant exposure to their native language that they would have if living in China. So they might be fine chatting with grandparents but not have the depth of language to use with contemporaries or in a business setting.

For anyone who's a 'native' speaker, a GCSE or A Level grade does confirm their ability and so even if it doesn't count towards UCAS points would indicate to an employer how well they speak/write/read the language.

@TheAntiGardener. English is not my first language but although I used to speak and write my own language at a significant higher level than most people my age when I was growing up in my country (due to a combination of hyper pedantic parents with a house full of books), I confess that after 20 years later communicating in another language, I have found myself wondering how to write the word seventeen.

I am aware some universities will not accept an A level in a modern language if the student appears to be a native speaker of it, and in most cases students are discriminated on the basis of their nationality or even worse, their surname’s sound (like assuming the kid speaks German because their surname sounds “German”). But I can assure you, if a child has been growing up in the UK, their parents know that the most difficult language for the kid to acquire / maintain would be the language they only speak at home. Therefore they are not at a significant advantage to get better grades than other students unless they have attended independent bilingual schools or they try as hard as non native speakers that want a higher grade.

My son's friend speaks four languages. His parents each speak a different languages but he was brought up in London so he also speaks English. For A levels he took another language (German I think). His exposure to lots of languages seemed to instill in him a knack for all languages. I think he also did French for GCSE so that is 5 languages in total. He has opted to do something completely different for a degree though. So I don't think it is just native speakers. It might also be people who have been exposed to lots of languages.

@GrandmasCat - I take the point your grammar or comprehension isn’t likely to be very good if you’ve never studied your own language and I appreciate why parents may choose it for their children if that’s all there is, but the fact remains A level modern languages are first and foremost french/Spanish/whatever as a foreign/second language courses. It’s getting your listening up to scratch, building basic vocabulary, learning completely new grammatical structures (not just learning the ‘right’ way to express something you’re already familiar with). They aren’t equivalent to A level or even gcse english - because there is a huge difference in studying a language as a first or an additional language when you’re talking about those levels.

Some courses are in fact available in native and non-native versions: there are igcses in Chinese as both a first and second language, for example. The former expects students to be operating on a completely different level to the latter because they’re starting from a different baseline.

Not sure why you would think I don’t think teachers are doing a worthwhile job. The thread is about native speakers taking A levels, not teachers.

And it doesn’t surprise me at all that uni or grad-level speakers of foreign languages often have a better grasp of English than a lot of native English speakers, although I’m not sure this is down to how they’ve studied English. People who express themselves well and gave a wide vocabulary in their own language will replicate that in other languages they speak to a high level.

@TheAntiGardener
It not a joke for native speakers to take an A level, many of them do because their parents understand their bog standard state primary school in the UK (or any other country) is not teaching them to read and write in their native language. Or do you think your kids write and read English well just because their parents speak English at home? You may think the hours so many teachers spent teaching these skills to your kids are worthless unless you believe your kids are genetically programmed to develop literacy skills by osmosis

Interestingly, it is often the case that at university level, overseas students who learned English as a second language have a wider more advanced vocabulary and better writing skills than the average English person.

What a waste of time.