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Unwanted School Imposition

186 replies

LisaRear · 04/10/2021 09:47

Before the summer holiday, my DS's year was given a range of exams after coming back from Covid home education. The general results were poor for the whole year. The school is now seeking to impose a move into some easier subjects for many of these pupils, we feel to manage their generally good history of results. All the previous results for our boy contradict his own result, but the school is not budging. Apart from removal, or private, what remedy, legal or otherwise, do we have? We strongly feel that these subject choices will impact the future and wish to negotiate a longer evaluation period (such as up to Christmas), while some home support kicks in to ensure success. But the school is unwilling for this, we suppose as it might create a precedent.

OP posts:
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AlexaShutUp · 07/10/2021 08:22

Well, you clearly have no intention of budging on your position, OP, but personally, I would not be charging down the complaints/legal advice route. There are other, much less belligerent ways of engaging with the school that would have a much better chance of getting you the outcome that you want.

However, I don't really understand why you are so attached to that outcome, when your ds - who you have said is engaged and intelligent - doesn't seem to care. The "mother knows best" approach is fine when they're tiny, but he is, what, 15? At that age, he is old enough to decide for himself what is important to him, and if he is as intelligent as you say he is, he should be more than capable of making a sensible, informed decision. If he was determined to do triple science and you were helping to fight his corner, then I would say all power to you. Instead, he isn't bothered and you come across as a pushy parent who is overly invested in a particular view of her child's ability that may or may not be reflected in reality.

You seem to have some weird perceptions about combined science. I do a lot of recruitment and rarely see people's GCSE results. Even if they're listed, I don't bother looking at the subjects as they simply aren't relevant. I would make no judgement whatsoever on triple vs combined science. And I say that as someone whose dd did triple and is currently doing science A-levels. Lots of her classmates did combined and they are doing just fine.

But that's all by the by, as you have clearly made up your mind that triple science is the only valid option for someone with your ds's level of intelligence, or at least, what you perceive his level of intelligence to be. Nothing is going to change your mind about that and you clearly believe that the school is doing him a disservice in order to make themselves look good, rather than using their considerable expertise and professional judgement to recommend the most suitable option for your ds on the basis of what they know about him.

The only thing I would caution is that this battle could so easily become a source of extra stress and pressure for your ds in a year when he needs it least. You obviously believe that you are doing the right thing for his future, but you could end up inadvertently causing a lot of damage instead. Please think carefully about how you proceed. Ultimately, even if you're right that he could still excel in triple science, is being right really the most important thing in this situation?

Kk789 · 07/10/2021 08:06

@Ritasueandbobtoo9

There are many Y11 children out there that go to “a bog standard comp” and engaged in online learning and have managed to do the required amount of work needed to get decent grades at GCSE in the three sciences so I think you are being a bit over the top wanting a judicial review because your son didn’t do the amount of work required. As people have said combined science is fine. What does he even want to do in the future?
OP said history Confused
Ritasueandbobtoo9 · 07/10/2021 07:51

There are many Y11 children out there that go to “a bog standard comp” and engaged in online learning and have managed to do the required amount of work needed to get decent grades at GCSE in the three sciences so I think you are being a bit over the top wanting a judicial review because your son didn’t do the amount of work required. As people have said combined science is fine. What does he even want to do in the future?

CantThinkOfaUserNameAgain · 07/10/2021 07:38

You dont have to withdraw your son from School to sit a GCSE privately. I would honestly put my money and efforts on preparing him to sit the exams privately if that is what you want.

Although he will need to do IGCSE Excedel or Cambridge as a private candidate and so you should First compare the syllabus with his current exam board.

We are home educators and DS has sat IGCSEs as a private candidate.

I don’t know where you are based but Tutors and Exams are a Specialist Company with exam centers around the UK for private candidates.

The summer timetables will be out soon.
You can cross check and see if there would be a clash of dates on exams or not. Historically Cambridge IGCSEs start earlier (late April) so this could be a good option for you.

clary · 06/10/2021 15:50

@Comefromaway

PRH regularly advocates for parents (& children) when schools have not followed the correct procedure. They really know what they are talking about.
Yes I will second that - a true voice of reason and knowledge
Comefromaway · 06/10/2021 15:44

PRH regularly advocates for parents (& children) when schools have not followed the correct procedure. They really know what they are talking about.

prh47bridge · 06/10/2021 15:39

You have mentioned judicial review. Judicial review can only intervene in three specific circumstances:

  • the decision is illegal, i.e. the school did not have the legal power to make this decision. A challenge on those grounds will fail as the school clearly do have the legal power.
  • procedural unfairness, i.e. the school did not follow the correct process in making the decision or the decision maker was biased. Even if a challenge on this basis succeeded, it would be open to the school to make the same decision again provided they followed the correct process.
  • unreasonableness. The bar for this is very high - you would have to show that the school's decision was irrational. The school's decision sounds to me like it is well within the range of reasonable actions, so I would expect a challenge on these grounds to fail.

I don't see that judicial review against the LA will achieve anything. This is the school's decision, not the LA's. And, as indicated above, I don't see that there is a case for judicial review against the school. Even if there was, as others have pointed out, by the time any decision was made it would be far too late. Also bear in mind that, if you went to judicial review and lost, you would have to pay the school's legal costs (and the LA's if you took action against them) as well as your own.

I'm sure you will be able to find a lawyer willing to take this on for you if you are determined to go down the legal route, but I would expect them to advise that your chances of success are minimal.

You suggest in one of your posts that judicial review would be a "cudgel in the background". I really wouldn't go down that path. The school will know that judicial review is highly unlikely to succeed. All you will achieve by threatening it is to mark yourself out as "that" parent.

twelly · 06/10/2021 12:17

There is a difference in the two otherwise they wouldn't be offered - there are some sixth forms who ask for higher grades for combined science than for the separate sciences to study at A level. There are also some teachers who make the assumption that all students have studied the single awards and that impacts upon confidence very early on. There will be gaps in learning moving to A level and for some students that gap means they start at a disadvantage which can make an impact.

Chilldonaldchill · 06/10/2021 10:16

I've read this whole thread and think there's potentially one other point worth making.
Apologies if you've stated already but what grade is the school saying your child achieved in recent tests.
I know of ^some^ schools (luckily not many) where the position in some League table of their own construction (most 9s for example) trumps all other considerations. And the difference between 8s and 9s is irrelevant. So if it's one of those schools that is terrified of a student getting 8, 8, 7 for example instead of 9, 9 then I don't think it's unreasonable to question the motivations. If, on the other hand, we're looking at 7/6 type grades then that might impact on future university choices etc.
I do agree with everyone that combined science is not a big deal at all. At my DP's school students could pick combined science as 2 options or triple as 3 - many students chose combined and the 5 Oxbridge students this year all did combined. At my dc's school everyone does triple with the exception of one set which does combined but with the same teaching time (so end up with one fewer GCSE). So I guess the attitude towards combined/triple can vary from school to school but shouldn't impact on a student's future.
I don't think it's unreasonable for a school to have its eye on the results - sadly that's the yardstick by which they are measured. But at the same time that should be sensible and measured not a kneejerk response.

cantkeepawayforever · 05/10/2021 18:06

@twelly

Combined Science can be an issue - some colleges and school sixth forms expect students to have single science background and although they might say its fine the teachers expect that prior knowledge therefore there is a gap in learning. I think that is a fault of those colleges and sixth forms but some teachers make the assumption. I would challenge this action by the school as this was not what your son signed up for - the school should have a back up plan to support students who struggled with the pandemic not seek a seemingly easy way out
In the past, under old curricula, yes this was occasionally an issue. Under the current GCSE specs, very very much less so - the gaps are so much smaller as to be negligible in a context where A level teachers are likely to recap simply because students may forget what they learned 2 years ago. As I say, DD took Combined, joined the 6th firm of a school where all GCSE students take triple, and bot only saw almost no gao but also outperformed the vast majority of her peers who had done triple.

Gaps are largely a historic issue - mostly gone with new syllabi.

myrtleWilson · 05/10/2021 11:56

@Comefromaway that makes sense. Hope the Op is able to have a useful constructive dialogue before booking the High Court!

LisaRear · 05/10/2021 11:53

@KaptainKaveman I was being intentionally vague

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Comefromaway · 05/10/2021 11:50

@myrtleWilson

The reason I asked about the differential in performance was to get a sense from the school's point of view as to chance of recovery/understanding what has gone awry.

If "normal" performance is at 80% and this summer's test has dropped him to say 70% the school may agree - yes he had an off day, or having looked at the paper in more detail he misread a question etc - so opportunity for recovering ground in triple is reasonable

If "normal" is 80% and this summer's test has dropped him to 50% - the school may be looking at the paper and seeing significant errors, misunderstandings across many more questions and then would reasonably take a different view as to chances of recovery.

Yes, thats understandable.

However what is probably more likely is that the normal tests were end of topic tests differentiated according to ability (so foundation students would be given easier questions than higher students). End of topic tests are generally a lot easier and a high mark would generally be expected.

The school then more than likely gave a test more akin to a mock. Some exam boards publish tests that can be used or you can use past papers. These test students understanding a retention of information across the entire syllabus. A lower percentage mark would be expected.

So in a way it's like comparing apples with pears.

The OP has no way of knowing which approach has been taken unless she/he approaches the school and asks about the content of the tests and how they were marked.

twelly · 05/10/2021 11:46

Combined Science can be an issue - some colleges and school sixth forms expect students to have single science background and although they might say its fine the teachers expect that prior knowledge therefore there is a gap in learning. I think that is a fault of those colleges and sixth forms but some teachers make the assumption. I would challenge this action by the school as this was not what your son signed up for - the school should have a back up plan to support students who struggled with the pandemic not seek a seemingly easy way out

KaptainKaveman · 05/10/2021 11:41

@LisaRear

Just received a call from a senior partner in education law. Various options including taking LA to Judicial Review.
Really? you really want to have this beef with the school? good luck with that!

You keep insulting posters, OP. You don't like to be advised, it would appear. You're that parent, aren't you? Grin. Selective school you say? It's not that much of a biggie ( going to a selective).

myrtleWilson · 05/10/2021 11:39

The reason I asked about the differential in performance was to get a sense from the school's point of view as to chance of recovery/understanding what has gone awry.

If "normal" performance is at 80% and this summer's test has dropped him to say 70% the school may agree - yes he had an off day, or having looked at the paper in more detail he misread a question etc - so opportunity for recovering ground in triple is reasonable

If "normal" is 80% and this summer's test has dropped him to 50% - the school may be looking at the paper and seeing significant errors, misunderstandings across many more questions and then would reasonably take a different view as to chances of recovery.

SeasonFinale · 05/10/2021 11:36

Combined sciences at gcse will still give a "broad enough" view for an all rounder who doesn't choose to go on to do A level sciences but is still sufficiently broad to allow him to do A level too. The A levels will be the basis of which he will move on to uni. And if he goes to Oxbridge even then the gcses are looked at in the context of the school at which they are taken. So better to get a good grade in combined rather than less good in separate or triple.

There may be other battles worthy of taking up against the school later such as whether certain A level combinations or predicted grades aren't as he would hope. I would say like anything it is a case of pick your battles and this may be one that can be opted out of.

Comefromaway · 05/10/2021 11:30

Without knowing the difficulty of the tests it's impossible to correlate that to an actual mark. 80% could be a Grade 8 or it could be a Grade 5. Which is why schools usually use previous full exam papers as marks where the grade boundaries have been moderated and published.

LisaRear · 05/10/2021 11:22

@cantkeepawayforever

It’s probably worth saying that the Combined Science content, in the new curriculum, is actually very close to the old Triple content - so the gap to A level is much smaller than it used to be. Dd did Combined, got 99 and went on to far exceed the marks of many of her triple-taking classmates at A level. There was a single unit in Y13 (none in Y12) where she had not covered required GCSE content that was covered in triple, and the school taught it again anyway as the triple - takers had forgotten it....

She started at Oxbridge last week. No issues at all with ‘only’ taking double Science at GCSE - all thr admissions tutors said that ot was always grades, not numbers, they would look at - so 99 much better than 887, for example.

Understood, thanks
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LisaRear · 05/10/2021 11:21

@ChloeDecker

Oxford admissions for instance consider GCSEs alongside As.

Even for Medicine, Oxford happily accept Combined Science at GCSE. Grades matter-not the science option picked. It is not the ‘dummy’ option you seem to think it is, OP.

Level of attainment in Science and Mathematics
There are no formal GCSE requirements for Medicine. However, in order to be adequately equipped for the BMAT and for the academic demands of the course, and if Biology, Physics or Mathematics have not been taken to A-level (or equivalent), applicants will need to have received a basic education in those subjects (for example at least a grade C/4 at GCSE, Intermediate 2 or Standard grade (Credit) or equivalent; the GCSE Dual Award Combined Sciences is also appropriate).

www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/courses-listing/medicine

And I find it shocking that an employer is wilfully discriminating against potential employees based on inaccurate and biased judgement as opposed to factual knowledge and I hope a future candidate raises their own ‘judicial review’ against the OP’s company for such practices.

"wilfully discriminating" 🤨
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LisaRear · 05/10/2021 11:20

@Orangejuicemarathoner

Who is telling you the average marks are "appalling"? - would it be your sone by any chance? Hmm
Previous results at similar end of year tests, parents with children in older years.
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LisaRear · 05/10/2021 11:19

[quote SeasonFinale]@LisaRear

There are a number of issues. First Judicial Review in normal times would take at least 3 to 5 months. However at present there is a large backlog of cases in the court system and I would be very surprised that this would be of any use to you in seeking to win a judgment to force the school to change their decision, unless you want your son to repeat year 11 which I suspect would not be the case if he is a high achiever anyway and probably not possible within the state system in any event.

Secondly, is the school still running the separate sciences too and your son has just been redirected to the combined sciences course? If the latter then I would seriously let it drop. Some schools only do combined sciences and as stated above pupils still go on to do STEM A levels and STEM degrees at Oxbridge and other RG/high end unis.

If they are running separate sciences still and you insist on your son taking that route against their advice then that is a different matter.

It would be a case of on your (your son's) head be it were he to take separate sciences and end up with poorer grades.

If History is his passion at present I would assume he would be selecting that at A level maybe. When does he have to select his A level choices, around February maybe?[/quote]
The hope is that flexibility will prevail and such things are just a cudgel in the background.

Yes, they're still running, with a very slimmed-down group.

History stands out, if I had to choose but that doesnt detract from an interest across the baord. If you think of your own intellectual development, I'm sure that you'll recognise that alert minds are pulled in multiple directions as different inspirations come into view. It's good to have a solid and comprehensive base.

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LisaRear · 05/10/2021 11:11

@Orangejuicemarathoner

Sorry, cooking. About 80%. Don't want to leave the scores for this years year average here in case of breadcrumbs - but appalling, hence why they're in panic stations.

saying "80%" doesn't mean anything at all, unless you know the grade boundaries. We have no idea if you are comparing like with like.

YOu can't compare end of topic tests with a full mock, for example. 80% in end of topic tests is likely to translate into something more like 40% in a full mock.

I doubt anyone is at "panic stations". I expect the school has the expertise and experience to evaluate and extrapolate from the results, and the result of that was to put your child in double science, from triple.

They will have done similar every year for very many years.

Yawn, spot the irate teacher.

For all in-school exams, tests etc. my child averages 80% across the board if you want to split hairs, throw up dust, knock yourself out.

OP posts:
cantkeepawayforever · 04/10/2021 21:44

Equally better to get 9 GCSEs all at 9s/8s than 10 with a couple of 7s

cantkeepawayforever · 04/10/2021 21:43

So unless you are convinced that your DS will get 3 GCSEs at the same grades as he would get for double (so 999 or 998 vs 99) then it is better for highly selective universities to do double and get the highest grades.

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