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Original poster

Secondary Admissions - what if I do this.....

33 replies

Floppythedog · 20/07/2021 22:23

I was thinking of doing this on the preference form

  1. Catchment school
  2. No preference
  3. No preference

The reason for this is that for years now (maybe around 10?) children in our village haven’t got into the catchment school. And yes, it definitely is our catchment school - I think every single person I know has checked with the LA over the past few years and the catchment area map clearly shows our village.
Instead the village children are split between a school in a town further south (19 miles away) and a school in a town further north (21 miles away) (its even further north than our catchment school (9 miles away) - you have to go past the catchment school to get to the north school!). Depending on whether children are lucky or not and numbers of the same age group further south, the lucky ones go south (on average - probably 1 or 2 a year and they all live further south than us). Based on past admissions data, we would be going north. Parents have to pay for their children to go to these schools (we’re talking thousands in transport costs every year and logistically dreadful to get to) because the LA argue that because the school was named on the form it is parental preference and they have no obligation to pay for transport. This winds everyone up especially when you have to go past children going south to the catchment school, who actually live closer to the north school than the catchment school, until you get to the north school - but that’s another story.

The school further north is inadequate.
I can not afford the transport costs.
I refuse to bankrupt myself for an inadequate school we don’t want.
We have no other acceptable options other than these three schools. The closest schools after these three are 31, 34 and 38 miles away.
We will get a place in inadequate north school because they have a PAN of 150 and have taken, over the last 3 years, 49, 52 and 49 children into Y7.
This is the school the LA will allocate when we don’t get the catchment school.

I was thinking of ordering the preferences as above. In other words, naming only the catchment school, because, in my head anyways, if the LA gives us the north school they are responsible for the transport costs because they sent us there. Is this correct?

OP posts:
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prh47bridge · 21/07/2021 00:48

[quote GingerAndTheBiscuits]@prh47bridge does that case not only apply for SEND cases?[/quote]
Whilst it was about a SEND case, it involved interpretation of Education Act 1996 Schedule 35B paragraph 6 (amongst other factors). Paragraph 6 applies to all children, not just SEND cases. Whilst it is possible the courts would decide that paragraph 6 should be interpreted differently in non-SEND cases, that seems unlikely. Given that it clearly applies to all children, it would be extremely difficult to argue that interpretation should vary depending on whether SEND factors were in play.

ContessaVerde · 21/07/2021 00:33

I’m quite shocked by this thread.
I went to my catchment school which was 7 miles away with no public transport. We had a free school bus to pick us up and drop us off everyday.
Is this not the case anymore?

If so, no wonder there are no families there any more....

GingerAndTheBiscuits · 21/07/2021 00:23

I can see how the principles would apply in non-SEND cases but not sure I’ve ever seen it in practice.

GingerAndTheBiscuits · 21/07/2021 00:19

@prh47bridge does that case not only apply for SEND cases?

prh47bridge · 21/07/2021 00:17

[quote Floppythedog]@prh47bridge I’ve read the legislation you mentioned, as I understand it:

If I put (genuine order of preference)

  1. Catchment school (9 miles away)
  2. South school (19 miles away)
  3. North school (21 miles away)

If we are offered either south or north the LA is responsible for transport costs. Is that correct?

I wouldn’t do this, because it’s not the genuine order of preference, but just to clarify my understanding, if I put

  1. Catchment
  2. North (21 miles)
  3. South (19 miles)
And we were offered South the LA is responsible for transport costs because it’s not catchment but the closest school.

But what about if we got offered north? South is closer so does that mean the LA has no responsibility and the parents pay? Or does that mean, because that’s not the catchment school the LA pays? Or does that mean, because it’s not the catchment, but for sake of argument south School has places it could have offered, then parents are responsible for transport costs to north?

I really hope that made sense[/quote]
In case 1 you are correct.

In case 2 the LA would still be responsible for transport whichever school is offered following the principles established by the Court of Appeal in S and another v Dudley Metropolitan Borough Council. The cost difference between the schools is not significant so the LA must pay. However, if North was, say, 100 miles away it would be different. In that situation the LA could refuse to pay if you got a place at North.

GingerAndTheBiscuits · 20/07/2021 23:53

That solves that bit at least! But yeah, seems like LA has been playing fast and loose

Original poster
Floppythedog · 20/07/2021 23:44

What I mean is; by road, the distance closest to furthest is
Catchment
South
North

By as the crow flies its
Catchment
South
North

OP posts:
Original poster
Floppythedog · 20/07/2021 23:43

@GingerAndTheBiscuits it’s definitely by road/walking. It’s been checked by many. And I’ve just double checked myself as well using the LA published admissions criteria.
Although it wouldn’t make much difference, the schools by road and as the cow flies, we they aren’t exactly the same distance as the road miles, but they are the same order of distance away.

OP posts:
Original poster
Floppythedog · 20/07/2021 23:39

@GingerAndTheBiscuits thank you so much. And thank you for the link to to the document. I will certainly read that.

So basically. As long as it’s the closest school that can offer a place, the LA has a responsibility for school transport.

As our preferences are pretty much based on distance, whatever we get will be the closest with a place, so, the LA should provide transport.

Ok, I think I get it. But I’m also now armed with lots of information to throw at the LA when they refuse to pay. Thank you. I’m off to join the masses in the village on the school transport costs campaign! Let’s see if we can get this idiotic LA to realise the law does apply to them as well.

OP posts:
GingerAndTheBiscuits · 20/07/2021 23:38

You also need to check how the council calculates distance. Are your distances based on road/walking route distance or as the crow flies and which measurement does the council use to decide school transport? It can be a different measurement to the one they use for admission purposes.

GingerAndTheBiscuits · 20/07/2021 23:36

And it’s not a complaint process but an appeal. You can appeal a decision not to award free school transport (two stages) and if unsuccessful you can go to the Ombudsman.

Gloschick · 20/07/2021 23:35

I would be tempted to put:

  1. Catchment school
  2. South school
  3. No preference
It would be a shame to miss out on even a small possibility of south school if north school is worse.
GingerAndTheBiscuits · 20/07/2021 23:29

So if you apply for a school you’d actually get a place at, the council can’t refuse transport on the basis you would have got a place at the nearest school, if all the places at the nearest school were taken by children with a higher priority/living nearer to the school. But if there is ANOTHER school nearer that your DC could have had a place at, the council can refuse transport. So I guess choose carefully.

Original poster
Floppythedog · 20/07/2021 23:27

@prh47bridge I’ve read the legislation you mentioned, as I understand it:

If I put (genuine order of preference)

  1. Catchment school (9 miles away)
  2. South school (19 miles away)
  3. North school (21 miles away)

If we are offered either south or north the LA is responsible for transport costs. Is that correct?

I wouldn’t do this, because it’s not the genuine order of preference, but just to clarify my understanding, if I put

  1. Catchment
  2. North (21 miles)
  3. South (19 miles)
And we were offered South the LA is responsible for transport costs because it’s not catchment but the closest school.

But what about if we got offered north? South is closer so does that mean the LA has no responsibility and the parents pay? Or does that mean, because that’s not the catchment school the LA pays? Or does that mean, because it’s not the catchment, but for sake of argument south School has places it could have offered, then parents are responsible for transport costs to north?

I really hope that made sense

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GingerAndTheBiscuits · 20/07/2021 23:26

No chance*

GingerAndTheBiscuits · 20/07/2021 23:26

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/575323/Home_to_school_travel_and_transport_guidance.pdf

The guidance says “At the point when transport eligibility is considered, the prospect of being able to secure a place in an alternative (usually nearer) school must be a real one. For most cases this will be during the normal school admissions round when places are allocated.”

So if there is absolutely no change of getting a place at the catchment school, the council needs to provide transport. I’m curious about which LA it is!

cuppaTandchill · 20/07/2021 23:22

I have 4 children and with all of mine, I have only ever put 1 choice and left the other 2 blank and I've always gotten a place at my 1st choice. Could go either way but I took the risk

Todaytomorrowyesterday · 20/07/2021 23:21

@Floppythedog yes she did get the transport paid for her. So I’m not sure if that’s down to local authority? She ended up not using it due to bullying and her child used the public transport so ended up paying anyway :(
It’s madness that people can’t get into the local school they want.

Original poster
Floppythedog · 20/07/2021 23:17

@Todaytomorrowyesterday I’m under no illusion that we are going to get the catchment school of thats the only one we put down. I know for a fact we are not going to get it and are going to be offered the worst school in the county so I’ve no worries about being offered a worse school further away, we are already getting the worst school.
I’m questioning where we stand regarding transport costs to other schools because of an ongoing local argument over transport costs.
Although if we do manage by some miracle to get the catchment school I will be over the moon. I will be so happy that there are no words to express it.

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Todaytomorrowyesterday · 20/07/2021 23:11

Don’t do it - it might feel like the only way - but it can back fire!
Obviously brilliant if you get in the catchment school as per the admission policy.
But by not putting anything you will end up with the worse school.

I say this from experience. My friend did this …ended up with the worse school in the area. She probably could have been given a place in one of the other local schools had they put them down (neighbours to them got into one of the others) but she assumed by putting nothing else they had to give her that choice ..when in fact the choice was removed.

Original poster
Floppythedog · 20/07/2021 23:09

@Comefromaway thank you.

@prh47bridge that’s excellent. Thank you. Thank you for stating where it’s written down as well. I shall go and look at that. I think you might have made a lot of people very happy.

@gogohm Our catchment school is actually the one we want but we just aren’t going to get a place.

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Original poster
Floppythedog · 20/07/2021 23:05

@Cattitudes honestly, it’s a nightmare. There’s been a lot of building in our catchment over the last 10 years and they are all closer to the catchment school than we are so they get the distance priority within the catchment children priority.
The school did add an extra class they upped the PAN from 150 to 180 around 5 years ago but, like I said, they keep building houses closer to the school than our village is. It’s annoying because most of the new houses are actually closer to north school than the catchment school. A review of catchment areas has been asked/lobbied for and I think the LA are considering doing it but as usual they are taking their time to make their minds up. The whole village and the village primary school are involved in fighting the issues. This also affects another small village who are involved as well, there’s lots going on to try and sort it but I don’t think it will be sorted before October 2021 when I have to submit the preference form.

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gogohm · 20/07/2021 23:01

Just put the school you want, outside of cities it's common to only list one school. If they allocate you a further away school they are responsible for the bus fares, don't worry about that

prh47bridge · 20/07/2021 23:00

Assuming you are in England, PatriciaHolm is correct.

If you name the catchment school as your first choice and don't get a place there, the LA must pay transport costs for whichever school you are allocated regardless of whether you named it as a preference. The LA's argument for refusing to pay is wrong and is a blatant breach of the relevant law (in this case the Education Act 1996, Schedule 35B paragraph 6).

Parents affected should complain to the LA. If that fails to rectify the situation, they should complain to the Local Government Ombudsman.

It sounds like your LA owes a lot of parents a substantial amount of compensation. I suspect the LA may resist demands for compensation even if the LGO recommends it. In that situation I would take them to judicial review. I normally recommend steering clear of judicial review due to the costs and potential risks, but this would be a nailed-on win if the situation is as described.

Comefromaway · 20/07/2021 22:59

www.gov.uk/free-school-transport

  • All children between 5 and 16 qualify for free school transport if they go to their nearest suitable school and live at least:

2 miles from the school if they’re under 8
3 miles from the school if they’re 8 or older*

A school is not the nearest suitable school if there are no places for your child.