"We don't want you to sit with us"

Probably meant more to me as one of my other children has been on the other end of exclusion and it was awful for his self esteem.

I’m amazed at fond of the answers here. It’s bullying by exclusion. Unkind. I would be mortified if my children behaved like that. It’s different if the person is being unpleasant but that doesn’t sound like the case here.

One of my proudest moments at parents’ evening last week was when the PE teacher told me my very sporty popular son had been paired up with a socially awkward non sporty peer for badminton. My son took it on the chin, was kind to him and got on with it, helping him.

It's heartbreaking OP.
I like @Cowbells experience re so called 'cool kids' welcoming neuro diverse kids- this has a positive knock on effect and surely makes life better for lonely kids and easier for all! And what a great life skil, for adulthood.
The posts seem to be divided into two camps: one which is aware of kids like OP's son (and empathises) and another camp who seem to think that non NT kids shouldn't get in the way of their kids life.
Sadly a lot of kids seem to think that it's not cool to be mates with a non NT kid.
They might be regarded as a "bit odd" themselves if they hang around with them and oh dear we can't have that can we? Thankfully for them disability/non NT is not contagious.
Instead of blaming the Neuro diverse and trying to teach them how to socialise (my child was given a list of what to say and what not to) maybe we should teach other kids how to develop an ounce of empathy. I can't honestly say that school were massively helpful.
In our experience it helped to look at the parents' attitudes; it explained a lot and I couldn't see them in the same way as before.
If it helps OP, my child is enjoying her first post-16 education and has met some lovely kind, supportive friends.
And I have to echo @GlencoraP's post re the other characteristics. It wouldn't and shouldn't be tolerated.
Best wishes OP and your son 💐

As an aside I wonder how the school would react if a disabled/trans/muslim pupil was told this? If the answer would be different then it's not on.

So are you only allowed to not want to be friends with able bodied, straight, white children then. It's ok to tell the annoying white child you don't want to be friends with them but not the annoying Muslim or trans child. Obviously if they are saying we don't want Muslims sitting with us then that's not ok, but OP hasn't mentioned they've said to her ds that they don't want him there because he's disabled. It's more likely he's annoying/doesn't have much in common and it seems he's latched on to one boy in particular, which must be pretty intense and awkward for that child. He will be missing the desired interaction with his actual friends and the group dynamic will be changed. This might also put him off being friendly toward him in class.

I'm guessing he doesn't have much in common with this group. It's a bit like expecting a sibling to hang out with the other siblings friendship group. Probably tolerated every now and again but every time would be too much. The thing is there will be dc that do have more in common and it's holding your ds back from meeting them by picking the crowd who clearly don't want to be his friend. It likely isn't doing his confidence much food either. I doubt it's a space issue if it's the same group every time. In sure it's not the only spare seat!

I personally think schools are too big now . Economically it works better and many people argue that more children means more choice of friends but in practice it often doesn’t work that way . The huge schools mean that it is almost impossible for teachers to really know the dc as individuals and vice versa . Schools often seem to be reduced to crowd control and the only way to manage these huge numbers seems to be ( in this country) to prioritise conformity which of course leads to nonconformists being ‘a problem’ .

The children can feel lost and anonymous and as if there is no anchor at school. When my dc moved to a smaller school ( still 800) I was struck that one day he said that he had looked down his line at assembly and he knew every person and they knew him, he knew all the staff at least by name and they mostly knew who he was. I was surprised at how much this mattered to him .

Cowbells I think my kids have missed out.
They attend ( to me) a huge school with these so called "tribes" that in my youth I thought if as a US phenomenon. It's dire imo.

Why does everyone assume that they’re the “cool kids” who are just being mean? The geeky kids / misfit kids / artsy kids / computer nerd kids etc. are also entitled to their own space and choice of friends.

OP kids can seem mean to each other but the situation you describe happens everyday. We as adults would (hopefully) never do this but this is all a part of learning.

As parents it’s so difficult to hear so you have my full sympathies. I walked past my DDs school and she was sat in the corner by herself and it broke my heart but it’s just what happens and the next day everything was fine. It is just kids being kids and it has nothing to do with your son’s needs. Chances are these kids could have special needs too or your son has been part of the group telling someone else they can’t sit with them. If it is just that they don’t want to play/sit with him then fine but if they are seeking him out to make fun of him than that is not ok.

For me inclusivity is just a failed idea. Ideally it should mean that everyone should be included on equal terms but in all honesty that is never going to happen.

I have argued on here for teenagers to be actively encouraged to be inclusive and to consider the challenges that others face especially in public spaces however those of us who have dc with social challenges also have to help them to fit in as well. We can’t expect the world to change for them, sometimes this has involved role play, social stories, and sometimes firm rules and even ‘do not say thats’ or ‘do not do this’ and all the other social coaching mentioned by the others on this thread .

But to the parents of children who are lucky enough not to have these difficulties, it can be a long and lonely road and it would be nice to think that we could be met halfway , that dc were being encouraged to think about the effect of their actions on others and what they could do to help those feeling awkward to feel more comfortable, Honestly it can pay huge dividends to both parties .

Something I have often said to my NT dc is that yes it’s awkward but it is only for a little while, your brother will be struggling with this for life. The courage it probably takes for the OPs son to even start a conversation is huge, all I am saying is that all children should be encouraged to stop and think about the impact of their actions on others and maybe take a step back.

I work in a school (primary) and I often tell children that I will never ever force them to be friends or to play with certain children as its totally normal to not want to be friends with or even like certain people. I wouldn't want to be forced to spend time with people I don't like HOWEVER I always stipulate that if you don't want to play with them it's fine but don't be unkind about it and don't be mean to them. Just stay away.

You have come onto MN and offered very vague details of what happened so people are responding to what you’ve said with their opinions and experiences. You don’t seem to like that though.

The pupil didn't say 'you can't' he said 'we don't want you to', and there is a difference.

Cowbells That is a really good thing the 'cool' kids did and it would be great if there were more kids like them. Kids who actively look out for outsiders.

Perhaps if other posters who are saying how terrible this particular group of kids are, would actively encourage their own kids to look out for and include outsiders, then the OP's son wouldn't be in the position he is in.

Children exclude all the time by not actively including. If just a small % actively included then those of our kids who are on the outside would find acceptance.

I regularly sit through lunch and other things with people who may not be my best friends. Sometimes I have found that the person I may have thought annoying actually is very interesting they just lack some social skills .

I really hate this attitude that teenagers are selfish so we should just accept this as a given and let them get on with it . Firstly as the previous post shows not all teenagers are selfish, secondly as adults it is important to help them to become less selfish and more empathetic not just give up

So they can say - 'I don't want to talk about cars right now. We're having a private conversation.' But they don't colonise empty seats to make others feel like mud on a shoe. It's not that hard to navigate the slightly uncomfortable situation. Good skill to acquire, a rather better one than the art of being cliquey and elitist.

My DC are in a social group quite similar to the one I had in my teens. It is intentionally inclusive. Two of the school's coolest kids (sports A team, very good looking) decided to gather up all the misfits who had no one to hang out with and invite them to their parties. From that act of generosity, the social group expanded and now it is a big diverse group of really close friends. It is possible, and imo a lot happier and healthier than closing down into like-minded cliques at such a young age.

And has been pointed out @Cowbells , he can sit where he likes, and if that's all that's annoying the group they are being a bit unreasonable. However if it's more than just sitting there - he expects to talk to the one boy about cars etc, then that's different to just a spare chair in the canteen surely

I agree with every post @TwinsAndTrifle has made.

I have two children, both of whom are at secondary school, and have asd. The eldest has had issues with bullying and frenemies in primary, but transitioned/settled well at secondary, and has good friends that get her, and accept and like who/how she is.
My youngest has (and has had) huge issues socially, he struggled all through primary, and he would be that little boy walking around the outside of the playground by himself, because no-one wanted to play/chat with him. Not all the time, sometimes he was part of groups, and played etc, but he's extremely intense, and intransigent, and he can be very hard work; tbh a lot of the time most other kids have no idea of what he's monologuing on about. It has taken us years of working on his social skills, us and school, to get him to where he is now- at secondary, able to interact for a decent part of the social time, beginning to make a few genuine friends. We still have to regularly remind him of how to speak to people cordially, and that others need to be allowed to participate in conversations too, but he is improving.

I do not think it's a reasonable request that he sit with this group. He isn't part of their social group, why should he be? Other mechanisms exist for him to pass social time- I would be far more concerned about the small inclusion support groups that aren't working, and pushing for that kind of provision than trying to make other children accept him. That isn't inclusion, it's tolerance, and there's a huge difference there. I don't want my son 'tolerated' thanks- I want him to find his own niche and make genuine connections with people. He desperately wants and needs that too.

Please do consider a different approach.

Put the same situation into a different context.

A group of 4 women work for the same company and meet in the break room on the second floor at 12:30 for lunch and a chat.

One day Dave pulls up a chair and joins then, they include him in the conversation, and so he starts joining then every day.

After a few weeks they decide to start meeting at 12 so the can plan their holiday without Dave, as they are leaving he comes in, smiles and greetings all round. The next day Dave is there at 12.

After another week they decide to switch floors and meet on the 4th floor at 12:30 after a couple more days Dave tracks them down and pulls up a chair.

Sally turns to Dave and says do you mind awfully sitting somewhere else we’re having a private conversation.

Dave goes to HR and complains that they are excluding him…

Other than the fact that adults would handle it differently how is the situation different and is Sally at all in the wrong to send Dave away?

OP apologies I hadn't read the thread fully, I normally do.

I was agreeing with Glencora, as did the OP, the children should be able to include someone for a short time. I meant that the other children in the group need to be more assertive if the 'leader' is just taking over. Children need to be encouraged to assert themselves and say 'no actually, xy please join us today, no problem'.

It's sad he isnt getting help with his social skills