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Original poster

Secondary School Appeal

58 replies

RCBOn · 14/05/2021 11:12

Please can someone help with secondary school appeal. We are appealing on the basis of admin error / miscommunication.

-10 October: Contacted the admissions team and asked them if its acceptable to supply only the rental agreement before the deadline as we would not have last 3 months Gas / electricity bills as mandated on the website, response was - That's fine, we will work with you to gather all the remaining documents.

  • Moved on 28th October and submitted rental agreement - 6 months contract
  • 17th Nov: Admission team asked for 3 documents - standard document evidence list from website ( Rental agreement up to March 2022, Disposal of old property / no access and at least other two other documents out of DL GP Registration Usage bills etc.
  • 19th Nov: we responded with what we had - DL, GP Registration, and reason why we can not rent our property - Had survey done and it required extensive building work and was worked upon by builder initiated in early Feb but delayed due to covid and the time the builders take to respond, plus the fact one of us were furloughed , we mentioned of our intent to extend the contract in shorter interval if possible.
  • 14th Dec: Admissions Authority - Individual - She was not satisfied with the address evidence we submitted and asked for usage bills to satisfy address evidence.
  • 15th Dec: we provided usage bills as requested in the same reply to her email
  • 12th Feb: Admission Team generic email id not the Admission Team official who previously asked us the documents in December, responded to 19th November email mentioning acceptance of DL,GP but require Rental document up to Mar 2022.
  • 17th Feb: our response was a big surprise to get it very last minute
  • 17th Feb: Now Admission Authority - The official and not generic email id, responded with an apology that she then accept the evidence we sent through so far, and the admission team was not CCd.
  • 17th Feb to 26thFeb: we didn't think we needed to provide anything more
  • 26th Feb: Admissions team generic id - asked for a contract extension again at 15.30PM
  • 26th Feb: we responded to check if there is a miscommunication and if this was going to affect our offer on Monday. Admission team official's email was on auto response on out-of-office and no response from Generic EMAIL ID in any form till March 9 on that.
  • 1st March: Looking at the offer we assumed that you are waiting for contract extension document.
  • We sent several email explaining all the previous communication and review and offer the place.
  • 9th March kind of Authorative email, having gone through all communication and correspondence, we ask you to provide Disposal of old property document in addition to Extended contract agreement referring to November email which lists all the documents but not considering to mentioning above review in December or their address evidence acceptance email on 17th Feb. and for admissions purpose they will consider us from old address only till we submit further evidence, but they will be happy to review the situation if we provide further evidence in future.
  • taking additional burden having to pay rent and mortgage, we took the risk to extend the contract till April 2022 in one stretch, and since we were in touch with letting agent after last month's email from admission team, we could now get the extended contract in couple of days and submitted but work on Previous property was ongoing, which the authority knew, hence we could not submit this before 15 April deadline.
  • Building work was completed on 12th April and contract document signed with Agent for letting out property and a copy of this submitted to Admissions authority to show our intent and update on progress.
  • We rent out the property on 28th April and submitted the Lease Agreement on May 4th and requested Authority to review the situation and offer the place.
  • Now a standard response we are receiving from Authority saying DS is on Waiting list and that we have lodged an appeal will process that request accordingly.

SO, I am not sure if I fight my case based on the fact that they Confirmed our address evidence document as Acceptable so should have considered for first round allocation, and should been consistent with the review, as we missed out second round and third round as well.

DS is allocated a school place which is near our old property and 7 miles from current property. Whereas our first choice school is 100 feet away in catchment.

Any help and guidance is much appreciated.

OP posts:
Original poster
RCBOn · 15/05/2021 14:03

Thanks all for your valuable inputs and views positive or negative.

I will come back and post after the appeal.

OP posts:
Original poster
RCBOn · 15/05/2021 14:01

@admission @prh47bridge

I have contacted Appeals Team and asked for advise on questions that I can put across to LA and official agreed that these are valid questions. Please can you suggest any additions or amendments to one listed below please.

  • Why was the response time significantly higher than 10 days, around 60 days in some cases? Does that contradicts its own statement to return enquiry within 10 days and agree that this may sometimes may mislead the pupil in believing evidence to be acceptable?

  • Does the LA agree the reviews should be consistent

  • Can the address evidence which was reviewed and accepted once be ignored and not referred to in following reviews?

  • Is it fair on Pupil to ask for further document hours before close of business before allocation day?

  • Does the LA have rights to withdraw offer after knowing the pupil moved back to old address after offer was made

  • In exceptional cases, with situation made aware of, could the LA have allowed Pupil to be included in First round of allocation from current address

  • Does the LA not see that there is scope for confusion when using multiple email thread

OP posts:
Original poster
RCBOn · 15/05/2021 13:15

@TeenMinusTests,

Yes as I posted in reply to earlier posters, It was all happening so quick with deadlines, plus LA promising to review situation if we provide outstanding evidence, it was quicker to rent it out, as the agent suggested, we could get a tenant within first week if advertised for correct price and with property kept in such nice condition. The plan was to sell the property after six months of renting out, do shopping for house where we are living now and buy house in new build development.

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Original poster
RCBOn · 15/05/2021 13:06

@Gloschick

You are exactly correct we thought of this, if work was going to take long which we didn't had a clue or info from builder, which I was asking to builder to supply action plan, and if finances were going to get tough from other means like similar to recent furlough, we would have ended up either selling the property or moving back. But still let LA know about it and they had right to cancel the allocation. This exactly is zest of my first email to LA and they accepted it first time around.
Being consistent with the review would have helped.
First review they reviewed our situation and asked for usage bill as an additional document and they said they accept the address evidence.
Second review hours before the close of the day asked for Extended contract.
Third review after allocation day, now they asked for Extended contract plus No access to previous property document.
The time they took to come back after we submitted the evidence was around 60 days + which led us to believe, the evidence we provided was acceptable as they have a standard note which reads something like, they will come back in 10 days at the most if they need more document.
Thought about late allocation.. but data suggests the particular school hasn't had any late allocations in recent years as there were no vacancies it seems.

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Original poster
RCBOn · 15/05/2021 12:37

@Erictheavocado
Yes, that was the plan to sell it, we had the agent in december who also agreed that its better to sell it once work is complete. Regarding renting out after the completion of work, we were asked by LA to provide no access to property document either by leasing out or selling it, and they were happy to review, with timeline and allocation rounds missing out, it was quicker to rent out. Yes the plan is to sell and buy house near the school. It's just the dominos effect that started with us getting the survey report and ended up at this stage. Everything happens for a good.

OP posts:
Original poster
RCBOn · 15/05/2021 12:27

@Zodlebud
Thanks for expressing your views, but by no means I ever implied to say my DS deserved more.
Local LA does allow you to move even up to cut off date and work builder finishing was not in my control. I would have been the relieved person if they could have completed the work earlier so I could sell / rent it earlier. I supplied details of builder for LA to verify.

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TeenMinusTests · 15/05/2021 10:36

The bit I think works against you is WORK AT Old property completed on 12th April and property advertised for rent same day. We got tenant in at this property on 28th and submitted lease document for old property to show it is no more accessible to us on 4th May

How does it make sense for you to own a house and rent it out, whilst renting your own place to live? The fact you aren't actually selling your old house looks unusual.

Gloschick · 15/05/2021 08:55

We moved to a rented house an hour away just before the primary school allocation deadline and had to provide a rental agreement that was at least a year long. It says clearly on the bucks council website that you need a lease 6 months beyond September, so I'm not sure why you didn't provide that in the first instance.

The reason you give re financial position re rental and mortgage - it reads to me that if finances were tough then you would move back into your old address. So you hadn't cut ties with your old property.

The bucks emails weren't great, but the info re lease is available for all to see online, so I think u are going to find it hard to argue the case that they didn't inform you of that in good time. Maybe better to pursue a late application?

Erictheavocado · 15/05/2021 08:33

I have none of the specialist knowledge that others here do, but, I would definitely find it 'odd' that you have chosen to rent out your original property, rather than sell it now the work is completed. That would suggest to me that there is a high possibility that you would move back in once you have a place at your preferred school. Why did you choose to rent it out rather than sell? Presumably, given your comments about the expense of paying both rent and mortgage, selling would have been the obvious choice, allowing you to purchase in your desired area and also showing the education authority that your move is genuine and not just a plot to gain a place at a particular school?

Zodlebud · 15/05/2021 07:41

Regardless of the confusion......... you moved just three days before the admissions address cut off date and the building works were finished shortly after National offer day. The timing of it all is rather convenient.

Plenty of other children worked extremely hard to pass the Bucks 11+. Your son is no more deserving than any other. To me it looks like a deliberate ploy to try and get him a grammar place and I think it’s very clear the LA think the same.

Original poster
RCBOn · 15/05/2021 02:18

@prh47bridge

Thanks, that's good analogy, will help.

Agree, they have made rules for everyone, which we need to follow, that's fine. No issue with that and I wouldn't use that.

For people renting in for few months ago or longer could only supply their Usage bill alone and is acceptable ! but there can still be any unexpected events that they may have to move out.

People who bought the property don't have to show evidence that they will stay ! but there can still be any events that they may have to move out

But yes If someone recently moved in which Council doesn't have any issue with, which is valid, but they have to provide all documents for every possible scenarios!

For second para, reason for moving I have explained in reply to other posters, with both working parents with no other family support and who had to travel for day jobs, we all ways stayed close to school, so DS doesn't have to travel plus educate at a school with good performance, a grammar school. DS did dedicate 15 - 20 minute everyday when he could have spent it on screen and got through the test. As we have only one school in north of county we wanted to settle where the school is. Is that wrong? but if I am moving back after getting the seat that is wrong. One of us parent were furloughed due to covid situation, didn't know what to expect, but now we were paying rent as well as Mortgage so that was risky not knowing when builder finishes the work? so we we were extending contract in small lengths, which again we conveyed clearly in very first email to council.
In the worst case, if I was furloughed and builder didn't finish work, I would let council know that I cant afford and hence moving back, council as they have clearly stated, they still have authority to cancel the allocation.

agree that council have published requirements but provided my property was in normal condition I would have sold or rented it out straight away, but I gave them details of builder, and I also offered to submit the report if required, but they did fair review in December and only asked for Usage bill as an additional document to accept address evidence. Should they not have told me that they will only use my old address until I provide Contract extension and document to prove No access to old property, which they didn't and not even on 17th Feb, when official confirmed they accept the address evidence and expressing and expressed an apology for not coming back early. Does part of review not include working with parents to ask for more documents if required? why take 60 days for review, when they claim they would reply within 3 days but at the max. 10 days if they require further evidence or information.? why send communication from two different email id's following different threads , one saying they need document, other says they accept what we have supplied, first one comes back and says we still need pending document? so confusing and frustrating it was.

OP posts:
Original poster
RCBOn · 15/05/2021 00:55

@myrtleWilson

Yes that's correct, a nightmare new build experience! from so called reputed builder, Never thought that they would in million years agree to buy a house because we have issues. There was quite a big news with same builder four years ago , same development, leave apart selling back to builder, they were even not fixing the issues. From day one we had issues with major leaks, and never expected to see similar report for our property.

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myrtleWilson · 15/05/2021 00:12

So you owned a new build house, wanted to sell within the 5 or 10 year guarantee - 60 pages of issues Hmm Did you not discuss with Bovis just selling back to them?

Original poster
RCBOn · 14/05/2021 23:59

@Zodlebud

Any minimal move to south or west would have still got me in catchment or within distance allocation, Yes thinking what Admissions team would think, I should have moved away from school in North or East! but only make it 1 hour travel time each way for my DS , I don't think I wanted that for my DS.

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Original poster
RCBOn · 14/05/2021 23:51

Wearywithteens,

As posted above move of less than two miles would take us into catchment OR move of less than 500 meters would have got us seat based on distance going by previous allocation data.

So if I choose what would be convenient for my DS ( Walking everyday to school) while we parents are both out on work, I don't think that is poor thinking !

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Original poster
RCBOn · 14/05/2021 23:46

PatriciaHolm,

If our intention was to move back after seat allocation, then they still hold the authority to withdraw the seat.
Plus they did the review and based on our situation they did accept the address evidence .

OP posts:
Original poster
RCBOn · 14/05/2021 23:41

Hellocatshome

As I mentioned in above post it was practical and convenient for us to be near the school due to work reasons. Plus If I move say less than two miles I would get into catchment , if they want to raise the point that we moved only to get the seat they could have still said the same thing.

OP posts:
Original poster
RCBOn · 14/05/2021 23:30

@PastMyBestBeforeDate,

I am on the road all the time travelling nationally, my wife works in London so we always wanted house closer to school, so that DS can walk to school.

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Original poster
RCBOn · 14/05/2021 23:26

@admission,

Thanks for understanding! we were on one hand chasing the builder to fix the property, who were dragging feet, trying to avoid doing the work.
We have been asking the same question, why did they say they accepted the address evidence but changed at the last minute, but they haven't answered it directly but only referring to original email listing all the requirements.

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PastMyBestBeforeDate · 14/05/2021 23:08

@RCBOn but why would you choose that particular time to prepare to sell and then rent it out? If I was moving out for renovations in Y6 I would have rented local to the primary. I wouldn't have gone miles away.
The panel are going to think like that.

Original poster
RCBOn · 14/05/2021 22:57

@PastMyBestBeforeDate,
The property required lot of work to be done, we got it surveyed and 60 pages highlighting issues that need fixing. Knowing the issues We could not sell and pass on the burden. So decided to get it fixed before selling. Buying as you know, is a big task in itself, lot to research.. so didnt want to buy anything in a hurry.

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prh47bridge · 14/05/2021 22:32

I think the LA is pushing it somewhat by demanding that renters have an agreement extending at least 6 months beyond 1st September. I think that may be open to challenge, but I wouldn't raise that at appeal.

What you have going for you is that the emails from the LA are poorly worded and some of it suggests that they had accepted your rented address. That gives you an argument that they have said one thing and done another.

What you have against you, as other posters have pointed out, is that most people, looking at the information you have provided, will think you rented close to the school in order to get a place and that you intend to return to the house you own once the place is secured. Even if that isn't the case, the problem you have is that the LA is clear that they require a lease agreement on your rented property running until March 2022 and clear evidence that your old property is no longer available for you to live in. As far as I can see, you did not provide all of the required evidence until the end of April. That was after offers had been made so too late for them to take it into account. They therefore made an offer based on the property you own. The fact you would have got a place on national offer day if you had been able to submit the evidence earlier is irrelevant.

It is just possible that the appeal panel will think the emails from the LA showed that they had accepted your new address, so it is worth a try. But, based on the information you have posted, I think it is a very long shot.

Porcupineintherough · 14/05/2021 22:10

Good God but if this isnt against the rules it should be.

barofsoap · 14/05/2021 22:06

I think lots of people move into the area after exam results but not quickly enough to get a place in the first round - means that there is a lot of pressure on the few places that are available in later rounds - very risky strategy

Lougle · 14/05/2021 21:43

I'm sorry, but I agree. I don't think you'll win this one.