GCSE choices (particularly MFL)

I don't think there is any data re how many successful applicants have gcse MFL and hence no evidence that would show an excess relative to their school cohorts.

Well selective school entrants are what proportion at Oxbridge? Do we know? Additionally, why shouldn’t other bright DC have the same opportunities? Let’s level up for once!

I would love to know the numbers (%) of DC who get into Cambridge and Oxford do so without a MFL GCSE. That might show whether they matter to the truly bright, or not.

It might tell you more about whether they mattered to various types of selective school.
I don't disagree with what you say, Percy. Some of the problem imo may be that the school system has been overly focussed on tests. If there's no exam or certificate then it's often not seen as worth doing. This leads to both vocational skills and cultural general education being neglected.

I agree @raskolnikova

Just to be clear I do think learning about culture, history, grammar, etc, is important too, but I wrote what I did above as I disagree with the general view we have in this country that 'everybody speaks English anyway'. In my experience that's not true, so there is actually an advantage to speaking languages.

I actually think we don’t want to be bothered. We do accept too readily that everyone else speaks English, so why learn something that takes effort?

The idea that languages are just about speaking persists too. This is often seen as a “need” to learn a language as articulated above. It’s seen as vocational. Even intelligent people do not see learning a language as learning about culture, history, arts, geography etc of countries and their people. We clearly need to do far more in this country regarding learning about other cultures. Especially as we still want to do business with them. Closed minds are simply unhelpful.

I think languages take effort to learn. Many DC and parents don’t see the value and have low expectations. The DC certainly won’t make much effort. Languages are not particularly well taught in many schools and the subject is marginalised. When schools won’t let DC take two MFL GCSEs the message is clear. We all want 3 sciences taught.

I would love to know the numbers (%) of DC who get into Cambridge and Oxford do so without a MFL GCSE. That might show whether they matter to the truly bright, or not. If a MFL gcse was required, DCs with ambition might think twice about ducking out.

What do bright British children lack in the above that most other nationalities don’t?

Tbh I think what they mostly lack is growing up in a world where the lingua Franca isn't their 'mother tongue'. Whilst undoubtedly it would be better if more of us were functional polyglots, most of us don't actually need to be.

OP, digressing a bit like PPs, it is fascinating how many DCs on MN threads are bright but very weak at the mechanics of MFLs at GCSE level Bright children in other countries don’t just learn English but other languages, also often starting from secondary school and are expected to do well at them like at their other subjects, at the very least at the written component.

From what I can see, written language learning requires applying logic to acquire grammatical structure and applying repetitive effort for memory retention. Then speaking requires listening and practice to reproduce pronunciation, a willingness to experiment at least in class and to learn from mistakes.

What do bright British children lack in the above that most other nationalities don’t? How much is it due to low parental expectations or poor teaching (worse than other subject teaching).

IME I don’t think exposure to learning parrot fashion some phrases at primary school makes any difference.

I don't know what the post-reform electronics is like but DD did electronic products pre-reform (letter grades). I wouldn't have said it was 'soft', she learned valuable skills, they had to do planning and report writing and it helped a lot with getting an Arkwright scholarship. She did comp sci too. She did do an MFL because the school made them take it but it didn't seem to really seem to teach language in a useful way....maybe it's improved post reform, I don't know.

In fact the electronics gcse sparked her passion... she's now a 4th yr Cambridge engineering student with a job in electronics design lined up. Far from reducing her uni chances, electronics turned out to enhance them.

Outside of touristy areas, there are a lot of people who don't speak perfect fluent English. I've studied and worked in a few places and the fluent English speakers were definitely a minority in all of them. So I think MFL are so useful, as they're something that can actually be applied to everyday life.

It's a shame a lot of people in this country don't like languages. That said, it doesn't sound like it would be the right choice for the OP's son.

Interesting Ds is good at sciences, maths, history, CS and chose music

His weakness is French but I think he had to do a MFL

I’m hoping it won’t matter that much for university

Agree with pp computer science definitely not a soft option.
Dd is y11 now and very bright but not particularly into maths or science. She didn't opt for triple science or further maths but decided to do computer science to try bump up that side of things.
She's is on course for 8s and 9s in all other subjects but has found computer science the hardest of all. By sheer hard work and a few tears she should get a 7 but she would not choose it again.

And this is why the uk is so poor at engaging with other nations. For some reason DC are incapable of learning a MFL. Unlike millions of other nationals who learn English. No wonder MFL degrees are the province of privately educated DC. It’s a somewhat shameful situation.

This.

But by the time it gets to GCSE choices the horse has well and truly bolted

And THIS! MFL teaching should start in primary school, when it’s fun and easy to learn and the children enjoy it. Where I come from they start English at 6yo and another language at 12yo. That’s on top of 2 co-official native languages and you must do all four, all the way through. Baccalaureate (A level equivalent) and university entrance exams include assessment of 3 languages, two of them with literature. There is no way you get out of them, unless you’ve recently moved to the local area and don’t speak one of the co-officials.

I don’t remember starting to learn ‘English’ because we were tiny and that class was just so much fun. We’re renowned around the world for having the most awful English pronunciation and grammar, but at least everyone knows the basics. Knowing the basics of another language opens up so many doors and the brain develops in a different way than that of a monolingual child.

Go with subjects he enjoys and hopefully that coincides with subjects he gets good grades in or he would be willing to work at to get good grades.

Sack of MFL if he doesn't like it although I did make my sons do Duolingo every day from year 7 and later transitioned to Memrise as they do a specific GCSE pack which helps them outside of the classroom.

Computer Science is not a soft option at all, are you thinking of ICT? It also isn't coding, that is a very small element to it.

Re uni, as above only 1 uni wants an MFL, if you have an idea of subjects he loves now, look at some university courses, see what they want for A levels and then see what a local sixth form wants for those A levels. It won't take long. So for Ds we knew in year 10 he liked maths, physics and computer science. We looked at all those degrees to see what A levels they want (computer science degree only want maths and further maths A levels, not computer science) so it just leaves options open.

Music is a great GCSE.

I have two boys and a daughter. Both boys chose not to do a language at GCSE, this was against the schools policy but they let it happen thankfully. My eldest son is now at Cambridge studying History of Art so I wouldn't worry do what is best for them.

I’m sure it doesn’t hold anyone back in the uk. It would if they were from another country and wanted to do business with the English speaking world. We simply don’t care about a broad education or seeing ourselves as sufficiently educated to converse with others or understand different cultures. Look where that has got us. We have a narrow outlook and it’s not healthy.

That’s because they learn to speak English from a young age. We force it on our children too late to be effective unless they are bilingual at home.

None of mine chose languages. Hasn’t held them back because they wouldn’t have done it at 6th form anyway.

And this is why the uk is so poor at engaging with other nations. For some reason DC are incapable of learning a MFL. Unlike millions of other nationals who learn English. No wonder MFL degrees are the province of privately educated DC. It’s a somewhat shameful situation.

If he doesn't have to do a language and doesn't have a particular aptitude or interest in taking one then I wouldn't make him. Much better to do something he is more suited to and get a better grade.
Much to my youngest son's annoyance his school decided to make a MFL compulsory for the first time for his year group. He picked French as he disliked it less than German which is hardly a recipe for success! He will do ok - he's currently predicted a 6, maybe a 7 by next year - but he had to drop other subjects that he could have done much better in, in order to, as a PP said, tick a statistical box for the school. And because he has to put more effort into French I worry it may impact on his other subjects. If we'd had the choice there's no way I would have pushed him to do it.

We were told that the Government was aiming for 90% pupils to be going the Ebacc route rather than progress 8 by the mid 2020's?

At my ds’ grammar school, Computer Science is compulsory but MFL isn’t! Which I’m pleased about as ds hated German. Being a grammar school, they get lots of students into good universities so lack of MFL obviously doesn’t matter.