GCSE choices (particularly MFL)

It is a problem at A level and a very big one at university. We should be more rigorous about who can do what degrees and A levels. But schools just chase the grades. It is very difficult if you are good at MFL but have to compete at university with people who are half German (+ every opther language) and have teachers for parents! These students start at university knowing a lot and certainly do not have to work hard at acquiring the spoken or written language as others do. They only need to work at their essays and perfecting writing skills. They do have a much higher starting point which is clearly beneficial. Yes, it has put off very many decent students.

Eng lit grade 9 in same year was 88%

The boundaries for the highest grades are well within the reach of a non native speaker - 84% got you a 9 in German in 2019 and while that's not easy, it's perfectly possible for a bright student. The level of the language requirement in the exam is not so high that a mark of that level is impossible for any but a native speaker. Thank goodness. Different story at A level sadly, especially in a niche MFL like German. And of course it's self perpetuating.

I know that the number of native speakers skews results but it doesn’t outweigh the need to learn a MFL.

No but it does mean its far more difficult for non native speakers to get the higher grades and that makes the kids feel they're not good at the subject and it spirals downwards so that some kids then decide they want to drop the subject.

There’s some pretty tedious MFL teaching in other countries as well but bright pupils still put in the effort to do well.
Many DCs or at least their parents accept that for example music or dance or sport or maths take consistent practice and effort but seem to think that MFLs can be crammed in just for exams like many other subjects. Then when not surprisingly they get poor exam grades, they blame it on a lack of enjoyment or poor teaching.

Haha Clary, yes every time! See also the question about why the whole world doesn't just speak the same language. Doubt it would be English!
Yes Errol, taking on good ideas from other countries would be nice. Again, we have a fine reputation for exceptionalism.

Maybe it is getting better, and I'm sure there are (and always have been, regardless of curriculum constraints) excellent and inspiring teachers. There seems to be more still that could be learned from how languages are taught elsewhere though.

@tadjennyp

What do you mean by 'taught better' Errol? I also work really hard at introducing cultural elements into my lessons as it is so important. Still one of the main questions is why don't they do it like us. It is a shame that more parents don't see any value in MFL and still believe the myth that everyone speaks English. I wouldn't force any kids to do it at GCSE though. Do what they really enjoy.

yeeeeeesssss

What do you mean by 'taught better' Errol? I also work really hard at introducing cultural elements into my lessons as it is so important. Still one of the main questions is why don't they do it like us. It is a shame that more parents don't see any value in MFL and still believe the myth that everyone speaks English. I wouldn't force any kids to do it at GCSE though. Do what they really enjoy.

I do agree with @MrsAvocet that the focus on cure GCSEs and more schools only offering 8/9 GCSEs is massively reducing numbers studying creative subjects. A very highly rated school local to me basically gives students one choice from PE, music, art, drama, tech, food tech, RE, a second humanity, computer science, health and social, business... so narrowing.

If MFL was taught better/more appropriately maybe it wouldn't be dropped so often or complained about when it's compulsory. The OPs Ds is unlikely to gain any sort of functional language skill, and afaik there's no cultural element either. It would be better to campaign to make it more fit for purpose before insisting kids spend their time on it. Of course it's difficult because there probably aren't many primary teachers with sufficient fluency.

I think a lot of other countries see MFLs as being of equal importance to other subjects. As indeed the Ebacc did. However it’s always the MFL that is dropped. We use every excuse in the world. Instead of learning from Spanish DC, we decide to run away from that resource. I absolutely agree that far higher status and value should be given to MFL learning.

I know that the number of native speakers skews results but it doesn’t outweigh the need to learn a MFL.

Children elsewhere in the world grow up listening to American music, watching American movies and TV.

We really don’t. Teenagers may start showing an interest in American/British culture in secondary school, but we don’t grow up listening to American music or TV. We watch local TV channels. Movies are dubbed. My mum sang us to us in her own language, not in English.

And like the PP said, there’s still another language on top of English which we only start in Y7 and by Y12 are expected to have the same level in, as English which we start at age 6. An A student is expected to get As in all the subjects, including languages. There isn’t a disparity in grades between maths/science/history and MFLs.

The most popular clubs after sports and music are what we call ‘English academy’ or ‘French academy’ and so on. A vast number of children attend MFL extra-curriculars in the afternoons, as improving the knowledge of English and subsequent languages outside of school is seen as highly desirable. There is a culture of giving value to foreign language learning.

This is from parents who grew up under a dictatorship which saw even local co-official languages banned. They didn’t do anything except the nationwide official language at school, most don’t speak any English apart from hello and thank you.

One of my Dc takes a Mfl and one doesn’t. The school (selective academic independent) no longer insists on it due to the fact that they aim for top grades across the board and in the normal course of things it’s harder to get a 9 due to the number of native speakers taking the exam. DS1 has six Spanish kids in his year.

Quite possibly not - but as usual DC and parents approve of giving up the MFL rather too easily.

Why are the sciences so over represented? At my grammar, one science was acceptable at O level - obviously not for scientists. But for the rest of us - who cared? No one! So other subjects for some DC get sidelined due to sciences taking centre stage. My DDs might have benefitted from being relieved of a science or two. No chance of course. Years ago, no one would have batted an eyelid at that. Now you probably have 4 of your 9 or 10 “choices” as Maths and Science. Add computer science and it’s half of Gcse exams taken. Add design tech and it’s even more unbalanced. We specialise way too early.

An art or tech should be compulsory (as it was for DDs). At my local Girls’ Grammar, 79% entered Ebacc. 21% ducked out. The boys’ Grammar was 74% entered and my DHs old grammar (which people fall over themselves to get into) had a mighty 47% Ebacc entry. Any school that insists these days seems quite unusual. Sadly.

I entirely agree that children should get a broad education. But the EBAcc doesn't enshrine it - no arts subjects and no tech subjects. The EBAcc was ok as a core in the pre-reform days when a bright kid could do 11 or 12 subjects - they could get breadth and depth on one aspect or another. The new more rigorous GCSEs don't allow for enough subjects for breadth. Maybe there should be a range of either completely unexamined options or half awards? I don't know... but one size doesn't fit all. Even if it's the case that many children benefit from doing an MFL, it really doesn't seem like the best use of options for the OPs DS.

I totally understand the lower priority of a MFL for those who struggle getting to standard in English or are dyslexic.

scarletzebra as I said in my previous posts, a headstart for English but not for the second MFL they usually have to learn.

My DS is being forced to do the Ebacc. Only children who wouldn't get a 4 at GCSE can drop MFL and therefore get an extra choice of another GCSE. Some children at DS's school haven't had a single MFL at secondary school in order to give them room on the timetable for extra English and/or maths so they have obviously been pushed down the non ebacc route right from year 7.

DD's school is forcing students to go down the EBACC route. If you wanted to do anything different you had to have a conversation with your Head of House and had to have a really good reason why.

DD was allowed to drop MFL because she is dyslexic and has struggled so much with it for the last 3 years that there seems to be no point in continuing to flog a dead horse.

I took French and Spanish and passed O level in both, yet the only French I can remember is that we did in primary school which we learned phonetically. I can understand French if I concentrate but speaking is another matter.

Children elsewhere in the world grow up listening to American music, watching American movies and TV. Coupled with starting English a lot earlier than ours start with languages gives them a bit of a head start.

Plenty of state schools insist on EBacc qualifying subjects PresentingPercy. From what I gather from friends with children at different schools it's pretty much the norm in our locality. At my children's school everyone except those who aren't felt capable of getting a 4 has to do a MFL.
As an aside, I think the EBacc is killing the arts. Many schools, including ours, have reduced GCSEs from 10 to 9 to provide extra time for Maths and English on the timetable because the new syllabi are much more onerous. So with Maths and English, 3 slots are gone, another 3 for the 3 sciences, one for a MFL and one for either history or geography that only leaves one completely free choice. The scientists at least get the option of an art or practical subject but a pupil who wants to do 2 languages or 2 humanities can't. My son was one of 7 to take GCSE music out of a year of nearly 200. Other "non core" subjects have had a similar reduction in numbers and some subjects are no longer offered due to the lack of applicants. So lots of children are not able to pick their favourite or strongest subjects. Individual interests and abilities are being sacrificed for uniformity. And if some subjects aren't being offered at KS4 or 5 anymore how long before it's no longer cost effective to employ teachers to teach only KS3 and they drop off the curriculum entirely?

So yet another example from cptartapp of a DC with a disproportionately low grade in a MFL compared to their other grades.

I lean towards PresentingPercy’s view of can’t be bothered to put in the effort with parents metaphorically shrugging their shoulders.
ErrolDragon learning English as a non native language is easier due to the it’s universality. However learning English does not really help acquisition of a second MFL which, as I said, most bright DCs in other countries are expected not only to do but also to get good grades in.

His 5 won't affect his uni offers, but he'd rather have a fistful of 7's and above only, which he would otherwise have had.
He ended up hating German, so rather counterproductive in the end.

Ebac is besides the point but it does enshrine what a decent broad education looks like. Should have an art added too!

We should consider a broad education as vital until 16. A broad education includes a MFL. Why did the DC only get a 5? Does it matter anyway? What university are they looking at? A single 5 in a MFL won’t disqualify DC from many universities. Did they get 9 in every other subject?

I don’t have a logical mind @ErrolTheDragon
So what should I expect the proportion to be? I’ve no idea what % of selective schools we have in this country?

It would be great to know what % has an MFL and whether state schools are not facilitating their brightest DC to study for one or more.

I have two just gone through these years. Neither DC chose a MFL and came out with a raft of 7-9's in subjects they enjoyed. DS friend did German because he was taken in by the Ebacc spiel and his grade 5 was by far his worst result.

The Ebacc is practically dead in the water - nobody gives a toss about it. Unless he wants to study languages then don't pressure him to take them. Let him take whatever he enjoys and is good at. I say that as an MFL teacher.