No offer at 11+ can you still get in at 13+

If your child is able, Hampton admit at 13+ although their main intake is at 11+ (they also assess at 10+).
But - as with all schools - if he's not as able as the intake (no matter how bright you think he is) then he's not going to be happy at that school.

The learning pace at Kings or St Pauls or Hampton is ferociously quick and it's not for everyone.

We were told recently that St James's Ashford is full for y7 in September, don't know about y9 though. Halliford has apparently had record applications this year due to new facilities or something and many dc were disappointed. It does sound like a very tricky year to be going through the process.

@Yesday I’m sorry you find yourself in this position. From experience it seems boys places are much harder than girls to come by.

Have you looked at Maida Vale school? (Sister of Kew) It’s very new so it’s less well known and as such less over subscribed. It might have a place come available for Sept?

Another idea is Thomas’s Battersea who are starting secondary this September which will be a blend of external applicants and its own cohort.

Ibstock place might have late places coming available as parents make final decisions before first terms fees are due. Not sure what journey would be like...

I think you have to grab the bull by the horns and ring round some admissions departments. Explain circumstances and see what they suggest? Occasional places frequently come up in the first term of year 7.

Good luck! x

For schools that require a minimum mark at Common Entrance, it is worth knowing that the minimum mark can be high. 65 % or 70% is quite common and that can apply to every paper, not an overall average. That said, most of the aspirational schools are not using common entrance exam marks for selection purposes now, only for setting purposes after passing their pre-test.

London is a city of movement!
Occasional places do seem to come up alot.
Definitely set your sights a bit lower and contact schools such as Kew House, St.Benedicts, St.James, Radnor House, Harrodian ,Halliford etc.
I would be surprised if one of those didn't offer a place before September.

13+ mum here .... excellent advice above, so hopefully the following might help. We are in the independent sector and still get confused, so be assured you are not the only one.

Lingo:
Pre-prep is usually referred to infant school. Up to year Y2. A Pre-prep to prep school covers infant and junior

Prep school - Form 1 to Form 4 usually, which are Y3 to Y6, with some of them going up to Lower and Upper 6 which are Y7 and Y8 each.

ISEB is (from what we are understanding) a system/test that was hugely used this year as a sieving type of method. As the child does the test, the test in the computer starts getting harder or remains within the initial level as it started, depending on the child's ability. The results allows the schools to chose their candidates in a more straight forward way for them.

CATS results for the schools you mentioned, are, I believe, around 132 minimal. Prep schools have a good number of children with these and higher results. For example, in our DC's class, a good number scored 135 to 141 (I will relate this a bit further).

"The Process":

The system just changed a few years ago and I think this is why we are still a bit confused. This is also the reason why you apply at this stage of 11+, even if you are going for a 13+ placement in 2 years' time as we did. But there is hope! Some schools, such as Kingston Grammar has a small number of spaces reserved for 13+ (I believe they have 10). There is always movement and you might find a placement in a less selective school, in Y7, 8 or an offer for Y9.

So, the potential schools either used ISEB, followed by an interview and in some cases a math and English exam within it. Some did the ISEB, interview and soon the students will be seating their entrance exams, a favourite one following this pattern is Winchester, they are going to seat their exams in May, I believe.

Other schools had their own entrance exams, followed by an interview and then a placement offer or a conditional placement offer in view of your child having to seat common entrance exams (again!) in Y8. We applied to 2 schools, one gave us an unconditional offer, the other a conditional, all depends on the school.

After the exams and interviews, then the process either follows more exams, or an offer, waiting list or a decline letter, but you should always hear back from the schools you applied.

In the middle of all these, if your child did well in the exams, they ask for your child's current school to send or they look at the already sent reference letter, this has a lot of weight in them offering you a placement or not, but but but if you child didn't do well in the exams and/or interview, no Head can get your child in by reference alone. This is where the CATS play a role! In that reference letter, the schools send the CATS (if they did them) results as well as part of this letter. With results over 130, they will emphasis these as they will show any school an added potential on top of their results.

13+ entrance. During our 2 years, the school we chose (as it was a conditional placement), will then be asking for a further reference each year to assure that the child is in the same school they applied with, and continues with good progress. Again, this letter will not get your child in the school, but it can get your child out of the school before they even begun! If the 13+ school offers an unconditional placement, then that was it, a reference letter each year and all done and dusted. So no Head can get your child in a school by recommendation alone, unless they are friends or relatives among themselves, which is possible, otherwise the mere commoners like us, have to follow the process.

In the 13+ exams you will do the core subjects, English, Maths and Science plus 2 or 3 other options, most common options will be a language and a humanity subject. The minimal pass is 55% for them to continue or offer you a placement.

Your ("possible") options:

You mentioned that your child was not given any offers, but you don't mention if he is in a waiting list or it was a rejection letter. If it was a rejection letter, before you waste your time and money, call each school and find out if they will give him another chance in Y8 to seat the exams again, you might find out that some of these schools do, some don't, but this will help you to know where you stand or if you need to move on with schools.

If you are in the waiting list, call and see what the chances are. Keep in mind that the 2009/2010 generation is an overpopulated generation due to the baby boom in 2009. The uptake of private schools has grown for secondary placements after these lockdowns, so be as realistic as possible of the chances that your son might have in moving up the list. Bottom line, he might still be up for a chance if he is in a waiting list.

Going down the prep school route:

The advantage you will have is that there is room in most schools who are running Y7 and Y8, as other have mentioned, due to the exodus at 11+. Those that might get you in the schools you mentioned, most likely will have their own entrance exam that your child will have to take. This will also give you an opportunity to see if you have a chance to make it in any of those schools.

My only advise here is that you are upfront with the Head and talk about your aspirations for your child. They will be a good gauge depending on the school and on their exams, if you child actually has a chance to make it in or not. But they will also give you other options that you might not be aware of.

Please note that a lot of prep school children whose parents had the schools you mentioned in mind, have also being tutored (not all of them), but a good number have. The competition in London and the SW is criminal and throat cutting for selective schools and even the mild or no so selective ones!

A tutor could also be a good port of call, but they are hard to find in London, but never say never.

Please bear in mind that a prep school or a tutor does not warranties the placement, it opens up the possibility and gives your child an extra tool to have a better chance, but is not 100% proof. Some prep school children didn't get the school they wanted at all.

Your child:

Before going on this issue, you mentioned that there were particular circumstances that affected his performance. Plain speaking, parents divorcing, death or bad disease affecting an immediate family member or a bad accident are circumstances that would get your child an opportunity in caring pastoral schools such as Reeds in Surrey, worth checking them. These have to be extreme circumstances of course.

You know your child best and you will know what would suit him best. We have chosen, despite the advise of the Head, a non selective or how they call themselves a mildly selective school as although he has high CATs, he also performs extremely well in maths, apparently he is KCS candidate with your eyes closed, whatever that is! But he needs a nurturing and less demanding placement. We needed a school where he as going to have more an almost 1-2-1 rather than being one more of a lot of brilliant and clever children.

I hope this has helped!

The point is mostly that schools would like to have certainty about their intakes. People testing in yr6 enter at yr7 or defer until yr9. They pay a hefty deposit to hold their place. The school then can plan ahead having a good idea of its numbers.

Lots of 13+ schools were starting to find some of their candidates switched to 11+ at other schools or because Common Entrance exams at 13 were so late, there was no certainty about who was coming until late in the day. It was mostly driven by schools, but actually many parents like to know too, especially with some areas becoming more competitive. Those in Yr8 Prep schools without places started to feel anxious when they didn’t know where their children were going,especially as lots of schools started filling more places from 11+.

Regarding massive changes happening academically, well there is a risk, but the aptitude tests which schools use (often similar to CAT or Midyis tests that lots of secondaries use on entry to assess intelligence) are pretty accurate at measuring ability. Most children don’t vastly change over that period. Work ethic might do, but ability won’t really.

I fear this is a silly question but what is the point of offering at 13 plus place in year six? Anything could happen academically to the child?

We live in Herts and as others have mentioned, the majority of transfers for boys from preps are still at 13+. Some secondaries did an early entrance process at the same time as 11+ but still have some places for the more conventional 13+ timeline, so you can apply later as well.

Maybe look at weekly boarding to a prep outside of London to see how you get on with it? Or even a couple of nights a week flexi boarding if you can find a school with a longer commute and a bus

By the way a pre-prep covers nursery-year 2 only and usually feeds into a prep. Prep used to be 7-13 but many are all in one from nursery to 13 now. Anyway, it is a prep you need for year 7, not a pre-prep.

We recently had to repeat the whole entrance process as the school my son had a Yr9 place at announced closure. All schools we approached were welcoming and helpful and we were able to get him assessed and had multiple new offers within a fortnight. Our prep helped us hugely with this also, and that is their job - to help secure a good and the right place for your child.

From West London you have lots of options north and south, just maybe need to widen the net a bit out of London.

The reality is that as you move out of LOndon, schools generally have less applications per place. Some actually struggle to fill and although they say they are selective and have an entrance exam, they take the vast majority who apply. This won’t be the case for the few very top schools but will be for many, especially boarding schools which are unaffordable to so many more people.

Knowing if you want boarding for senior is pretty important for deciding your next steps. It is very much a case of working backwards from where you want to go, to where will get the kids in there.

If you are looking at boarding maybe look a bit further out too?

Many London preps will be keen to take your DS, because they lose so many now at 11+, but be wary of being pushed down the boarding route if it's not for you. I would call up the preps near you and ask for conversations with them about which senior schools would still be options for your son. Good luck.

I would caution about joining a school at 13+ which has their main entry point at 11. It can be hard to break into existing friendship groups if you are one of only a few children joining, although of course depends on how easily your child makes friends.

There are plenty of schools that do have big 13+ intakes just outside London which you still have plenty of time to register and apply for. For example, Berkhamsted, Aldenham, St Albans and Haileybury. Admittedly they are further East so probably not viable options but I would agree with a previous poster to look further out of London. Many have school bus routes from various points in London.

If joining a prep to 13 I would also ask where the majority of boys go at 13. It is likely many will be heading to boarding schools hence why stay on? Your son will be properly prepared for common entrance and it’s the schools job to work with parents on next schools.

Out in the Shires, Hertfordshire and Bucks, the best preps all go to 13. (Not pre preps - these are Prep schools) This is because most of their DC go to boarding schools at 13. Lots of their DC won’t have even tried for 11 plus. In Bucks, some will have left for Bucks Grammar schools, so Caldicott is a good shout if you want boarding from 13. It’s unlikely you would have to take somewhere average either. I think you will have options out of London. That’s the key though - out of London.

The other option might be a weekly boarding prep. There are plenty of those in Berkshire (eg: in Ascot there’s LH and Papplewick) and Winchester House in Brackley Northants is excellent. I would get out of the London school rat race.

Can I ask what the personal circumstances were?

If it was an ill parent or sibling (ill - severely ill) then schools may take that it account.

Most schools these days seem to offer the vast majority of their places at 11...either for 11+ entry or for deferred entry at 13. Many ask parents to specify one of those entry points when applying. They need to know possible numbers for each entry point when making offers so often aren’t keen to make general offers. If a child didn’t get an offer at 11+ (assuming it’s a school that takes at 11) they often won’t want to take them at 13 either. However, sometimes they will say that applicants can have another go if they do 13+ entry in yr 8 too. The quantity that get taken in via this route varies by school but is declining and declining as schools want more certainty about who is coming. Many will now make more offers for 11 and less for 13 in Yr6. If there are strong applicants they might not take hardly any who test and get offers in yr8. In some areas where there is a strong relationship with certain preps, they might hold more places to be allocated at 13.

So if looking at Preps and senior schools you really need to drill into how many go at 13 and how many have their offers in yr 6 and how many do t get them until yr8. Increasingly it is smaller numbers.

That said, 13+ Preps do take students into yr 7 from outside. They could be coming from Preps who finish at 11 and already have their 13+ offers or they could be coming from Preps or state schools and have not got the 11+ offers they hoped for. Preps which feed a wide range of senior schools and also who lose a good number at 11+ will take such students. However if they haven’t had offers at 11+ they usually caveat it with the fact that parents have to be realistic about which schools should be applied for at 13. If candidates weren’t successful for top schools at 11 they aren’t likely to be successful at 13 in most cases except where there’s been something very unusual.

In the end, all these children from Preps who are there in yr7 and 8 go on somewhere. Preps pride themselves on finding the right school for different pupils and sometimes it’s a case of families adjusting expectations over time. For the more immature boy (and it is the fact that boys more than girls can sometimes not be ready for exams or a move at 11) that extra 2 years or first 2 years in Prep can give them time to mature and be much readier for exams and the move to senior. Another couple of years as big fish in smaller pond really works well for some. But there are smaller and smaller numbers of 13+ schools so I think you really do need to drill down into numbers and also exit numbers and destinations from the Prep and I to the senior schools.

Too many people seem to find they end up in yr7 or 8 in a Prep which is pretty tiny as loads left at 11. Increasingly it can be an odd experience as many have already got their offers and aren’t so focused on preparing for exams and are almost just ‘waiting’ to go to senior school, especially if most start at 11. Things have changed a lot in the last 5-7 years. It has gone from those 13+ Preps having most tested at 13 to them being tested at 11. Lots of senior schools have abandoned the 13+ entry or substantially reduced it. Lots of Preps have abandoned yrs 7 to 8 as numbers have reduced. The Commin Enteance which was the hallmark of yrs 7-8 is used less and less even by top schools who instead rely on their own internal entrance exams at 11 as a better gauge of future ability rather than content heavy Common Entrance.

But of course there are still Preps which have everyone leave at 13 and seniors who don’t take into 13. They might be your best bets and some of the boarding schools and those outside LOndon and the south East might not be so competitive. But even so, most places will still have been offered in Yr6.

In the end they do all go somewhere and most people seem happy and it’s the Prep’s job to sort it out, so moving to Prep for 7 and 8 may well be a good choice. Good luck as we ar equite late in the day but actually lots if 13+ Preps will have places so you should be okay. Just do your research and know what you’re getting into re exit destinations and don’t just jump at the first offer without fully understanding how many already have offers and where children with your DCs profile tend to go.

I think it is highly likely your DS will get a place at an independent school if he goes to a prep because it is a job of prep. However, it doesn’t mean that he will get in one of the above schools you mentioned. All of them are aspirational schools for many prep kids in top sets. There are schools which test children in Year 8 but you still need realistic and backup options. The head will give you advise which school suits him and ideas of combination of the schools which you may apply. It’s possible that your DS will end up at a non selective independent school.
I also recommend to call prep schools to discuss future options.

We've just been through this with our DS. We moved him to an excellent Prep for yrs 6-8, aiming for 13+, as we wanted an indie secondary but knew he wasn't going to make it at 11+ from the state primary he was at.

Many schools do 13+ entrance exams in Y6 so yes, the door is closed on those. But there are just about enough who also run exams for Y8s for 13+ entry. The Croydon schools - Whitgift, Trinity, Royal Russell - plus Dulwich, St Dunstans. Some further out (eg Caterham - where DS is going). And some with either tiny intakes (Emanuel - though I think that may be ending) or 'occasional places' (eg Ibstock, Kew House). There are also other newer senior schools with intakes, eg Kensington Park, Fulham, Thomas's Battersea Square.

Our prep has been fantastic. Great teaching, and huge support on secondary school transfer. As someone said upthread it's worth talking to some preps that go to 13. They choose their own numbers and will often have a space or two after the majority leave post 11+.

I would say though that even with help from our prep, I did TONS of research to work out what the options were. Good schools guide is worth a sub for a month to help you get going.

Good luck.

You need to have a frank conversation with several prep heads (not sure why you mention preprep). They can swing the balance in your dc favour if they have a good ongoing relationship with seniors but their priority may be to longer standing pupils or siblings with a proven track record. It is likely they will suggest safer options. Does your dc excel in any extracurricular activities such as music or sport? Unfortunately you may find such schools closed this week and time tight. Would you move after Easter given the opportunity?

OP, contact Falcons prep for boys on Monday, it's near Richmond station so accessible from Hammersmith. I know someone who took their ds out of a state secondary in year 7 and sent him there and they got him into Harrodian at 13. You can also consider occasional places at Ibstock.
Finally have you considered St James's Ashford? It will probably take your ds this Sept. The girls sister school is in Hammersmith and it has a bus route from Olympia out to Ashford. I would also ring them on Monday as they have a late sitting for ds without a school place although this is often in March, I don't know about this year.

I would rethink state options as there are good state secondary schools around Hammersmith e.g. West London Free School, Hammersmith Academy and Chiswick School is said to be doing well under the current Head.

You can supplement with tutoring and extracurricular activities using the money you save from not having to pay fees. I have sent my dc to independent school but now, nearing the end of the journey, and the uni destination is just the same as it would have been if gone down the state school route. Dc isn't leaving with the love of learning I would have liked to have seen. I feel it has been a lot of money to pay for some extra sports. Don't get sucked into the schools hysteria that exists in London. Your dc will be fine even if they don't go to KCS, SPS, etc.

Did you get any feedback from the schools OP, to find out how close your DS came? Many schools are willing to give feedback and it helps give you an idea of what chance your DS would have of improving to the level require by the next set of exams.

Hampton did offer a 12+ exam in my DS's year (for those who did not previously apply or who applied for 13 + and weren't successful). It was NOT for those who applied at 11+ and were unsuccessful.

It does seem to be the case with a number of schools around London now that the 13+ entry point is being squeezed and so may be more competitive than 11+. So you do need to find out how close your DS was and what he needs to do to improve.

Is Dulwich too far for you? They seem to be keeping a 13+ entry point with an exam in year 8, albeit reducing the number of places offered at that stage (with most of the 13+ places being given out after pre-test in year 6). The will, however, also be fewer applying in year 8 so it may balance out.

Common entrance is being phased out now. Many schools have stopped it altogether although keeping children to 13. Many already know which school they are going to but there will be some without a place for various reasons.

I wondered also if Epsom is a workable option for you because I have known people apply outside of the usual year 6 pre-test (e.g. in year 7) and get offered a place for year 9.

The other thing you could consider is finding one or more good tutors used to tutoring for common entrance and GCSE who can raise standards outside of school (and send him to the state school for now). You might get better results this way, especially if your DS is prepared to work during school holidays.

My DS's prep school have definitely taken their foot off the pedal now that most children get offers in year 6 through the pre-test route and you may find putting your DS in a prep school for two years won't give you the desired result of raising his standards.

@Yesday being in Hammersmith, did you not apply for West London Free School for your state option? I know some who turned down their 11+ places in favour for getting this via music aptitude test (as they were out of catchment).

Did you get feedback on quartile results from the privates you applied for? They are all the most selective and several with Junior Schools attached thus making it more competitive as limited 11+ places with many moving up from their Junior schools. A few also have less of a state school intake than others. What

As @GU24MumGU24 asks did you find out about WL? I expect all the privates you applied are now full for Sept intake and WL are now closed.

What is it that draws you to an independent school for him and why did you choose those that you did?

You don’t have to answer here but to also ask yourself a bit more on reason for choosing. Highgate and UCS quite a bit more northbound journeywise, but obvs high ranking.

Was he prepared for 11+ exams and knew what to expect?

A Pre-Prep won’t necessarily get your child a place at 13+ either. My state primary ed DD got several 11+ offers compared to several of her Prep friends who got no offers or WL! Depends on school being best fit too and if the school offered interview for all applicants, how did that go?

A friend’s daughter has just transferred to Year 8 at the local grammar from a secondary school.

She had a very bad a day on the day of her 11+ and passed her 13+ with flying colours.

Good luck to your son.

OP any good Prep school/Head will ensure a pupil goes to the best school for them, so its a definite advantage. You have to be prepared that the Head may say your child is not suited for any of the schools you applied for/looking at 13+. They may, for example, feel they are better suited for a more non-selective option, but they will then suggest options.

I note you were saying concerns about travel. I think you may find you need to look out towards Bucks/Berks/Surrey. A lot of London prep schools are only to 11nowadays because of the secondary options.

Most of the Preps in the SE have coaches into London though. Caldicott for example has coaches coming in from Notting Hill/Hammersmith Bridge.