DAO (Dame Alice Owens) v City boys

www.whtimes.co.uk/news/dame-alice-owens-racism-protest-7970784

EleniT

You make a good point when you say Unis will favour a child from a low income/socio economic household over one from a middle class household when there is little to choose between them as far as grades are concerned. That is because they know how disadvantaged those kids are and how hard they had to work to get those grades(Not saying Middle and upper class kids don't work hard btw). Grammar schools know this all too well hence why there are so little kids on fsm in them.

JBX2013

When it comes to the selection of Non private school pupils, University admission officers know the difference between your run of the mill comprehensive and a selective comp in a leafy area like DAO.

DAO has more in common with independents in the North London/Hertfordshire area than it does comprehensives. These are the Fsm numbers of the 4 grammars in North London compared to DAO

Henrietta Barnet 1.9%
QE Boys 2.0%
St Michael's Catholic Grammar 3.7%
The Latymer School 4.2%

DAO 3.6%

So basically DAO has roughly the same number of pupils on FSM as a double selective grammar school like St Michael's. DAO is a comprehensive in name only.

I think this is very true. My husband works for a university and he does say that in recent years top universities would favour children from low income and also from non private schools. But, having said that I know private schools also get children in top universities and courses.
What @JBX2013 is saying.

Hi @PatienceVirtue! I should have offered more detail to make this clearer.

You are quite right: a rational formula is used, with the specific approach of each Uni being reviewed periodically, as well as being informed by updated statistical socio-economic measures.

But there is also a belief that, beyond this, wider 'contextual' criteria are applied. Imagine three candidates for the last spot on a very competitive course: if it's DAO vs. Henrietta Barnett vs. Habs Girls, then the decision favours the DAO applicant where there is otherwise little to choose between applicants. There will be many strong applicants in this position for the most prestigious courses and the selective schools I know will tell you this is relevant. Broad eleven plus success puts a pupil, such as @Schoolflapper's son, on this track. Take Cambridge Classics (3 year course): something like 130+ candidates out of 170 are considered strong, suitable for that particular course and so worthy of an offer. How do they then narrow this list of 135+ down to 90 actual offers?

Eh? That's not how contextual admissions work as far as I understand them. They look at the economic mix and the academic attainment of a particular school - if the student body is made up a high % of PP pupils and performs far lower than the national average, then an applicant may be eligible for a contextual offer.

Neither of which is remotely true of DAO, which weirdly actually has a lower proportion of children on FSM than an independent with a good bursary pot.

Or do I misunderstand it? I don't work with schools at all like you @JBX2013 so this is just what I've gleaned but I'd be interested if I've totally missed the point.

Hi @New21 and @Schoolflapper! Like so many others, we too had a comparable dilemma, in our case in 2010. In the end, we chose Henrietta Barnett over North London Collegiate and Latymer. We did not apply to Dame Alice as this would have meant moving house (again!).

Our reasons were travel safety-energy-time-convenience and what our daughter felt about the different schools' respective cultures. We would do the same again. ... And the funds saved have simply gone towards her higher education; she is now headed overseas for her PhD.

Dame Alice has a good record for supporting students on its most academic track. It also benefits from being considered a state school and a 'comprehensive' (!) for Uni admissions, when Unis are making decisions 'contextually'.

I work with schools and am happy for you to PM me if you wish.

I've just watched the headteachers video .. and I,m shocked to be honest .. she seemed so uncaring , and basically said if your child is not very bright and they have any SEN needs .. we are not the right school !, go and look elsewhere does that not go against Equal opportunities and educational policy....if they get any government funding it should be withdrawn . So of course their results are good it only takes the very bright and the children who have parents who can afford private music lessons and the so on .. quite upset me

ok, got it. Yes, private schools costs a lot of money.
With my daughter she didn't get into a selective school and she really wanted to be in a good school so I did have in mind that she can move for 6th form. And she is in a good position now so, I believe even if its 2 years, us saving private school fees will still be good.

Yes, only went to 85 this year

EleniT I think that orangeblossom means that for the 60 academic places, they've only got as far as 100 (or less) on the waiting list this year, because it's so popular. Usually, children much further down the waiting list are offered places.

Without a doubt, DAO. My three, all in their 20s/30s, all went there. Each had a house at uni with the money saved, their results were good (AAA+ ... which was pretty standard at DAO in their day and I presume now too), but moreover, they had a great time there. Academics did matter but everything else worked well too. And we turned down private scholarships for the first one. That said, I do quite like City Boys, they used to carry my pushchair for me at Blackfriars . But I like saving £500,000 even more than I like any private school.

well, I guess the rank takes the school as a whole and not just 6th form and particular subjects.
I try not to judge a school as a whole but only parts of a school

Also, through the years, I don't think ranking numbers is the most important here, it's up to the child really, a child can only do well if they are happy in the school.

First time in over twenty years that the DAO ranks have not gone past 100.

Competition is fierce.

It is up to you really but, you have to put a lot of things down.

This is our story!

My daughter is now in Year 11. She goes to an independent school. She didn't get a place into a selective grammar school and she wanted to be in a high academic school, so we compromised a lot of things to sent her to a private. She has done well and the fact that all girls have gone through the same selection process (for your case, CITY), it means that although they are put in groups, an average girl means that for GCSE this is grade 7/8.

She applied for 6th form. DAO is possible for her. I would love to sent her to DAO because its 2 more years of fees. Remember each year this is 20k (includes coach).

My thinking is that DAO AL results and her own school results for the subjects she will do at AL are similar. This is why she agrees to move to a school for 6th form. If money was not an issue, I wouldn't bother as she is quite happy at her school and as parents we are also happy. But 2 years of 20k = 40k and she definitely wants to study so at least she can use those 40k for later.

Good for him he can choose a school, I think it's always good to have an option rather than being stuck with a single school choice. Good luck to him and remember wherever you/he thinks he will be happier, that's where he should be.

But, at the end of the day, it's entirely your decision.

I know pkaboo - I didn't think anything else and realised you and I were agreeing. I meant other people sometimes see diverse as just meaning 'non-white', rather than actually mixed.

@Thedogisdrivingmemad i am agreeing that it is not a diverse school and providing a discussion thread in support.

I think people are offering different opinions which suggest the right school depends on your situation and your dc. It's not grammar or privates are better. Whatever OP and others decides will be fine and considered given this thread, and will impact others on waiting list at a grammar or private.

Pkaboo, I think sometimes people use 'diverse' to mean non-white but the two are not the same thing.
QE Boys is not diverse at all from what I see.
That's not necessarily an issue but I think it was raised upthread so I'm just responding to that.

It has a reputation for being fiercely academic and full-on.

Obviously not an offer as it's not yet March 1st, but high enough scores for an offer

You have to be suspicious of people advising you to reject DAO/QE Boys at this time of year You never know if posters' kids might just be high enough on the waiting list...

Only people I know rejecting either school this year are those who have an offer from the other of the two schools or Latymer/HB.

And supporting thedog

www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/forum/11plus/viewtopic.php?f=71&t=23310

I'm surprised people say it diverse. When I visited it was 95% south east continent but the pupils have an amazing work ethic judging by some of the threads I have read about revision timetable so deserve top grades. Not sure my dc would keep up in that environment though despite being of the same genetic descent but has my lazy gene.

Oh and btw City has a lot of bursaries and doesn't have a flashy feel from what I hear.

Of those three, City is most ethnically mixed and reflective of London's population.
Owens a close second.
QE Boys is quite mono-ethnic.

Also City and Owens are more liberal. QE had a very strict, full-on feel.

City and Owens get great results without being hothouse in feel. As far as I'm aware neither push kids out as much as QE at sixth form.

Both City and DAO are fantastic. DAO is much bigger I think so that might be a factor but otherwise it's about location, mixed vs boys and FEES.

2 generations of our family are old Owenians so our vote would be for DAO . Depends on whether your son would be focussed and thrive in coed or single sex school.

Sorry about the rogue commas