Getting rejected from schools

@XelaM - well done again for making it a win-win situation for your DD and your family.

@northlondondad1976 did op say which secondary schools she'd applied to?

We have two local comps which are rated good and one which is rated outstanding. On paper the good ones both have around 45% grade 5 and above and attainment 8 score of around 45 too. By comparison the outstanding school is around the 60% mark in both, while the selective grammar is closer to 70. So I can see that just looking at the stats would make you think you may not want your child going to one of the "good" ones.
However having talked to lots of local parents with children at all schools, I haven't heard of a bad experience at either of the good schools, while the outstanding one seems to have quite a few issues with pastoral care and unhappy children. So I can understand why a "good" school may not have the academic results that op is after, if all you're doing is looking at the headlines.
Also this year has been a nightmare as none of us have had a chance to look around schools and "get a feel" for which one suits your child best.

It is worth emailing the wait-listed school now to let them know that it is your first choice school and should they be able to offer you a place at anytime you would accept immediately and pay the deposit.

@ineverstopbeingsurprised This was in the beginning if year 5 and before lockdown. My daughter's prep gave HUGE amounts of homework every day. They have always been homework-heavy. It was like torture for her having to do the tutors' mass of homework on top of that and she had to regularly do it on the fly between things. I only got the tutors in the beginning of year 5 because (a) my daughter is no genius academically; (b) apparently that's what most people in North London and at her prep do/did; and (c) I come from a very different education system and this was my very first experience of the 11+. We cancelled the tutors in early February 2020 though, so that put an end it to it. I don't think there is any magical formula that tutors can teach and parents/school/WHSmith can't.

OP, you're railing against the unfairness of the system, yet you have opted out of the system by choosing to enter your child for selective schools, pay a tutor, and ultimately pay school fees.

State schools in London have had far more money thrown at then over the last twenty years than those in the rest of the country- try living in IoW, Stoke-on-Trent, Mablethorpe, or Blackpool and then see the true unfairness in the system.

Your son achieved a place at a school you applied for- congratulate him, and help him prepare for transition.

I too have paid fees because the local schools did not provide what would suit my children, but I certainly did not rant about it. I consider myself fortunate that I was in a position to do so. You have the means to pay, the ability to get a good well-paying job- you have choices. Millions do not.

[quote XelaM]@Pkaboo I so agree with your tutor point! People usually talk about tutors as if they are magicians, but in my experience what tutors do is explain a concept (usually in a very complicated manner) and give tonnes of homework for the kids to do past 11+ papers or sheets similar to Bond books. I got rid of tutors pretty early on, as my daughter didn't have time to do all their homework and past exam papers/Bond books anyone can do themselves without paying huge money for the privilege. I didn't see the value in the highly recommended North London tutors. It's all a bit of "emperor's new clothes".[/quote]
How come there wasn't time to do any work? Did school give homework? My DD had 10 words a week for spelling. That was it. So there was no problem fitting in anything from a tutor and have a normal life. And didn't your DCgo to a prep school? If I paid for school, I wouldn't expect to have to do any work to catch up on the curriculum. And surely, a prep school is more money spent than a tutor for someone at a state primary?

@PresentingPercy I had the impression that the state schools on offer were perfectly okay, just not good enough for OP's child.

I don't get the whole aversion towards state schools.

[quote PresentingPercy]@ineverstopbeingsurprised
The op said her local secondary school was shit. Hence the 11 plus. Clearly lots of dc from her state primary will be going to the shit school.

Obviously I don’t know how that opinion has been arrived at but often that is equal to poor teaching. Ofsted usually find poor teaching in RI schools. That affects all children, MC and supported or not.

It sadly means some DC will be tutored for years. They spend less time doing other activities due to this. Shit schools tend to have less sport, music and drama. Fewer clubs. This affects the worse off as the MC parents make up for these defects. Other parents obviously struggle. I believe poor teaching in poor schools affects every child. Just maybe in different ways but don’t we want all DC to succeed without excessive tutoring?[/quote]
The two state schools she is waiting on are both Ofsted Good, so I doubt the rest of the state primary will feel the same way.

@ineverstopbeingsurprised
The op said her local secondary school was shit. Hence the 11 plus. Clearly lots of dc from her state primary will be going to the shit school.

Obviously I don’t know how that opinion has been arrived at but often that is equal to poor teaching. Ofsted usually find poor teaching in RI schools. That affects all children, MC and supported or not.

It sadly means some DC will be tutored for years. They spend less time doing other activities due to this. Shit schools tend to have less sport, music and drama. Fewer clubs. This affects the worse off as the MC parents make up for these defects. Other parents obviously struggle. I believe poor teaching in poor schools affects every child. Just maybe in different ways but don’t we want all DC to succeed without excessive tutoring?

@Pkaboo I so agree with your tutor point! People usually talk about tutors as if they are magicians, but in my experience what tutors do is explain a concept (usually in a very complicated manner) and give tonnes of homework for the kids to do past 11+ papers or sheets similar to Bond books. I got rid of tutors pretty early on, as my daughter didn't have time to do all their homework and past exam papers/Bond books anyone can do themselves without paying huge money for the privilege. I didn't see the value in the highly recommended North London tutors. It's all a bit of "emperor's new clothes".

@ineverstopbeingsurprised not saying u said not passinf in is failure. I said it might be interpreted by child as that. There are a lot of crap unqualified tutors out there. This is my last word on this

Can you imagine if somehow tutoring was banned and children got into the school that was right for them based on fit alone (be that academic, sporting, musical, arty, performing, outdoorsy)?

The reality is that the London system is the way it is BECAUSE of the parents. Of course it’s competitive but over the years it has become increasingly so because of bonkers levels of tutoring.

We moved out of London as I just couldn’t be dealing with it.

@Pkaboo Only one person here has talked in these terms. Who has said not getting in to selective school is equal to being a failure? It depends how the whole 11+ has been sold in to the child.

I'm sorry but we are talking about 11+ now and not subject specific exams now - It is not healthy to just look for outside excuses why something didn't work out. Don't blame the tutor/preparations, don't talk down the children who did pass, don't use luck/bad luck all the time. It is better to know areas for improvement rather than constantly blaming other factors.

@PresentingPercy In this particular case/thread, the difference in teaching won't make that difference because we are not talking about parents who don't have time/money/interest with the only option being a school in a deprived area.

Yes you don't have to be good at everything and ppl will fail at different things but to be labelled failure at 11 which might be the interpretation is wrong. They have room to develop still and should have time to make mistakes

Ineverstop
Yes but it the bright child goes in with the wrong information or strategies taught by a teacher/ tutor he will fail every exam

PresPolly
Agree quality teaching is of overriding importance and wouldn't want to undermine that but schools in poorer areas that are full of underachievers, don't necessarily have poor teaching. So must be more. having taught myself know that life is easier in nicer school because the parents will do the work, pay for a tutor etc.

As a school governor, it’s quality teaching that makes the biggest difference. Parents and backgrounds are of course in the mix but DC do better when well taught at great schools. This is absolutely vital in more deprived areas where mc advantage doesn’t exist. There are hundreds of schools where there is no added value at all - only a minus. Even MC children don’t do as well as they should in these schools. However anyone affording a private school has spare money from somewhere!

At the end of the day, parental support is what makes the difference. As mentioned above, this thread does not deal with real inequality in this country.

And success in these exams are so hit and miss. It could be the tutoring, luck on the day, DC's strategy rather than ability.....

Reading the thread , I think all your DCs will do well. Parental expectation and contribution is as significant in academic achievements as the school. Though whether it means they break into the top careers generally held by elitist families is a different matter. Don't know if anyone saw that program about class by Amol Rajan

www.suttontrust.com/our-research/elitist-britain-2019/

So might as well giver up

Seriously, I love some the the sacrifices and torment for ther kids parents are reporting. I get why op is shielding dc. Love xela's strategy. Mrsbobdylan, you are amazing. I wish some of the kids I worked with before had you as parents. That would change their chances. the inequality isn't in the tutoring for schools. It starts at nursery and the gap widens from there. That's why free nursery for 2yr old is good. A bright working class 3 year advantages are overtaken by an average middle class by 5yrs old

If anything, I think the kids who passed are amazing, as those exams are bloody hard and the competition for places greater than for Oxbridge!

@ineverstopbeingsurprised Err... where have I said I talk down kids who were successful?! What I said was I talk up schools that my daughter was successful in passing and tell her why Latymer (her dream school that she didn’t get into) would never have been a good fit for her

I have major issues with people joining a process/syatem with no issues only to slate it when it didn't go according to plan. I also have major issues with parents talking down other children/families when they succeeded with something. The way it is talked about here about over tutored kids etc. Almost everyone that voice a frustration over not getting offers from the desired schools, seems to have invested more time and money than anyone I know with children in those desired selective schools.

This is a major reason why I cannot stand so many parents in London - the inability to be humble and grateful.

OP if I were you I would shut down this thread and if needs be change your username and set up another thread with a different title if you still want advice. This is going to turn into a slanging match about private v state and wealthy v poor before too long which was not the original purpose of your post!

I am totally on your side and really hope things work out ok for you and your son. Too many people still trying to roast you for your actions.

For the love of god, give the woman a break!

@Mrsfrumble I do sometimes think Edward Latymer must be turning in his grave at how things are now. He originally set up his fund to provide education for poor boys in Edmonton. Now it exists for middle class parents of North and East London who can afford extensive tutoring.

MrsBobDylan
I’m glad to hear your son is doing well.

I hate this perception that everyone could afford school fees if they just scrimped a little. It’s like the “millennials can’t afford houses because they spend too much on take out coffees” bollocks.

Is it really so hard to imagine that there are very bright children who won’t even get to sit entrance exams because their parents don’t even know the option exists? I can guarantee the majority of parents at the North London primary school where I volunteer won’t have ever heard of Latymer or QE or DAO, let alone know that their children are eligible to apply for a place and sit the exams. Most couldn’t afford the tutoring either, so their children will go to the local comprehensive (that the middle class parents are so desperate to avoid) regardless of how bright and academic they are.