Part 2: SW London Girl's Indies 11+ Pandemic Panic!

@MumsRule20 this is one of the disadvantages of having a ‘common entrance’ type exam. So frustrating as an off day can tip things the wrong way.
This would’ve been even more devastating if all the schools you went for used ISEB. I wish your DD the best and hope she gets into a school the best fits her.

@stellagibbons, of course!!! I’m a day ahead of myself. Off work at the moment so need to occupy myself

@MumsRule20 commiserations to your DD on the ISEB - I wonder what on earth happened that day? Just shows how, while the ISEB can be great for reducing pressure with only one exam, it ends up being a very 'all eggs in one basket' approach. We are the same, we would never have put DD through this ordeal (and it has been an ordeal) if we didn't think she had a strong chance of getting in.

Has anyone heard from JAGS or know someone who has heard about scholarship assessments?

@MumsRule20 sorry to hear nerves got the better of your DD. It’s bound to happen to some and the fact all schools are using one test result means some very bright Dc aren’t showing their true ability.

@EITEL we’re all the schools your DD applied to using ISEB as well?

Standardisation is the process by which the raw scores of the test taking population are converted to a scale using a normal statistical distribution with 100 being average and every other typically 15 points being a standard deviation (similar to an IQ score). So a standardised score of 120 Is top 10 percent of the testing cohort. Again ISEB and CAT have different testing populations which is why there is a gap. It probably reflects that prep school kids test better on these types of exams due to significant prep.

Most schools including state schools use CATS as part of monitoring expected progress versus achievement and for setting / streaming but most don’t share the results with pupils or parents as it’s part of internal data monitoring. Some state schools do though particularly if there is an issue with underachievement relative to CAT

Those scores look right. The gap between ISEB and CAT is because CAT is standardised to the entire U.K. school population while ISEB is standardised to independent school children cohort only.

If you look at St Paul’s ISI report the school says based on national standardised tests basically all its pupils are in the top 10 percent and about half of it’s students are in the top 3 percent which is a standardised scorer of 128 or higher.

There really aren’t any schools whose entire intake is above 130 (top 2 percent) on standardised tests.

I agree with you @Flossietea on the Atom 135+ being more likely at the top end with an equivalent uplift all the way through that list

I wonder if Atom will continue to stand by these figures in future years - especially after this year and the prevalence of the ISEB as a means of entry test. If people's experience is that the Atom SAS being seen at home is mismatched to school offers coming through it's sort of a mis-sell.

@dazedandconfused11plus - there's so much chat on MN re CATs and they are just a mystery to me. Our small, non selective indie doesn't do them. Are they an independent school thing or a state school thing. Are they commonplace? I enjoyed the stats part of Atom as it gave me a measure which we'd not had before other than how DD did % wise in a test and sometimes what the median % mark attained in the year group was. CAT sounds useful

On the CAT4 scores, I think it works slightly differently to simply adding 8 to the SAS. I know that online providers have been saying this to parents but it just isn't correct in statistics. CAT4 is a measurement of academic potential and is represented by a normal curve of distribution. What that means is that the vast majority of children's scores are grouped near the mean which is 100. There is a standard deviation of 15, so around 2/3 of children will score between 85 and 115.

As the scores get higher, the number of children achieving those scores decrease exponentially. So for instance, only around 3% of children score over 127; 2% over 130; less than 1% over 135; and when you reach 141 it's something like 0.1%. And to note, it is technically possible to achieve over 141 but that's the ceiling for most cognitive assessment providers (I think Atom's ceiling is 142 though).

I appreciate that there might be an uplift but it wouldn't be a blanket number such as 8 for all children's SAS, because the uplift would get smaller as the scores increase.

There's a really nice explanation on the elevenplusexams site if anyone's interested! www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/forum/11plus/viewtopic.php?t=512

And you can see the normal distribution here: www.gl-assessment.co.uk/sites/gl/files/images/Files/Testwise/CAT3-guidance.pdf

Hope that helps!

I think those CAT scores are too low. Top CAT score is 141 and I imagine super selective schools would look for 135+. But this is all speculation of course. The schools are never going to reveal this stuff.

I wonder if Atom subscribers will be contacted by Atom in March to ask which schools they got offers for. It would be great data for them to have.
After one of their ISEB seminars I emailed them to ask what sort of Atom SASs few of the schools we'd applied to might expect and they provided the following:

SPGS: 120+ SAS, equivalent to 128 CAT.
G&L: 118+ SAS, equivalent to 126 CAT.
PHS: 115+ SAS, equivalent to 123 CAT.
WHS: 117+ SAS, equivalent to 125 CAT.
FHSS: 114+ SAS, equivalent to 122 CAT.

I feel these are on the low side in term of Atom SAS. I have no idea about CAT scores as our school have never done them.

@noellejoy thanks for that - I checked all my in boxes and haven’t received anything. Just an invitation to the interview on Wednesday morning. Can you let me know who it was sent from so I can e-Mail them and query? Many thanks!

LU will tell you which quartile your child was in, but that's all.

@montlieu the cynic in me believes very few ISEB scores will ever be shared. It opens the floor to comparison between candidates and comparison between schools. I think the closest parents will be able to do is compare average atom score with ability to reach interview/offer stage and even this could be skewed by state/indie boy/girl type demographics.. infuriating though!

@PatoPato - same here with DD's exam this morning, a lot of typing noises and shuffling of papers but thankfully it was all over rather quickly. Good luck to our DDs!

@montlieu - yes, I'd really like to know that as it would be useful to corroborate the correlation stats they are spouting.

@YossaHughes we received the LEH info session email yesterday around 4:25pm, maybe check your spam? But it could have been sent at different times to different people. The dates are:
Mrs Hanbury’s Information Sessions
The sessions will start at 4.30pm on the following dates:

Tuesday 19th January
Wednesday 20th January &
Thursday 21 January

Ahh, @PatoPato, I feel you!

Thanks for the encouragement on earlier re Hampton. It's very much down to interviewers at this age (and, based on my own experience, for a considerable length of time thereafter), and you just can't control it.

The "big sighing noises" made me laugh. My DS does exactly that when he is stressed through a challenging problem, but, luckily, all've been spared of this, as none of ours were via Zoom.

Mettle was ok, but personally felt a bit re-purposed and unpolished. Also, faffing around with the QR-codes, when it turned out that I could just use the existing scanner, was unncessary.

Anyway, nearly done now, and we'll be able to laugh about it eventually, I am sure!

interested in comparing real ISEB scores versus ATOM's ISEB mock. has anyone had a chance to get hold of their DCs results yet ?

*no avoiding it !

It's over (was mercifully short) & DD said it was indeed really distracting but it's done now.
I just can't believe they all managed to work through the keyboard two finger bashing, pencil scratching & big sighing noises & there was avoiding it.
We've now done every type of online exam available. I'd say Mettl with an on-screen exam seemed the best cheat proof, non distracting form of invigilation & Zoom invigilation with mics on and exam on-screen was definitely the worst. Zoom with mics off but sideways on (for paper exam) was far better. ISEB was by far the least painful or stressful.
Just listing my experience here in case Admissions ever tread these threads. I would if I were them

Sorry @HereIAmDontTreadOnMe - cross-posted!

Oh, I see: I'm guessing the mics must be on so the invigilator knows if someone else is in the room. How tricky! Must be a way around it. I hope your daughter isn't too put off by it

@TeddyDidit I think the problem is that the invigilator needs them all to have microphones on to make sure they're not receiving help off-camera.

I use Zoom a lot for work and I don't think there is a way to mute other participants without sharing co-host control, or a way for the host to be the only one that hears everyone. Unfortunately Zoom is designed so that lots of people can hear one person without distractions, not the other way round.

Plugging headphones into the microphone jack but then leaving them on the desk rather than wearing them would re-route the sound from the speakers - might make the noise less distracting? May be too difficult to hear instructions from the invigilator properly though.