State or private

Small is often not a good thing in private schools IMO.

Extracurriculars are a nice hobby for the vast majority and if a DC wants to do something to a high level, that’s likely to mean after school/weekends anyway, private or state school. So wouldn’t personally give a lot of weight to that.

Working FT is good for other reasons, eg pension, financial independence and security.

Bullying happens in every school, regardless of how strictly it's dealt with (the fact that two children were excluded at your sons' school is surely evidence that poor behaviour does occur there, even if it's rare and sternly handled). Of course it's great that your boys are so happy at school, but how on earth can you know that they'd have been bullied in state?

To answer one of OPs original questions I don't think that for a bright child the academic outcome is necessarily the issue. They are likely to get broadly similar results (although there is evidence that some schools offer more 'added value' than others, state as well as private) wherever they go but the experience they have along the way, what they do, the support they get, the pastoral care and wellbeing, that may be different.

Research suggests that parents if you ask who don't currently pay for education to consider a situation where they would pay (e.g. they can afford it, but have been happy with their local state school until lockdown and remote learning), what would be the most important factors in making that decision, they say academic outcomes. Whereas if you ask parents who are currently paying for education what are the most important factors they say all round education, broad curriculum and co-curricular opportunities. Almost the same thing if you look at families who can easily afford private education (value breadth) versus those for whom fees are a stretch (value academic achievement).

I (private school parent and private school employee) don't think that you can pay for or guarantee academic achievement, but it may be possible to pay for a more appropriate environment for your child, whether that's smaller classes, more opportunity, better pastoral care - it depends on the child end the school. Equally, you can find all of those things at good state schools and paying doesn't guarantee any of them either.

From a personal experience, I've never regretted paying for my DDs schooling but the various advantages have varied between the 3 schools they have attended and they have achieved academically more readily where they were better supported and the emphasis on wellbeing. Where we live the state schools that were feasible for us at the time we're rated needs improvement so that had a significant bearing but wasn't the only factor.

Throughout my children’s school life they have never once experienced any kind of bullying, if I were to send them state, no doubt would they be targets for bullies.

Hmmm, no offence, but that's the kind of generalisation that gives private school parents a bad name! Perhaps your local options were like that, but surely you're not suggesting that all state schools are full of unruly bad-mannered bullies and that these things don't occur in private schools? (I write this as a private school parent.)

Private if you can afford it.... but having said that, it really depends on the child.

I chose private for both boys, because they just wouldn’t have been able to cope at a state school... low funded, over crowed class rooms, unruly, bad mannered children and not to mention bullying. I just wouldn’t put them through that.

We have one year 7 at private and a year 1 the main reason we chose the private school route was the substantially smaller class sizes and that because of that the focus was around best results for that individual child they are not a straight A* at GCSE school and have a huge range of results among the children but they have the support to do the best they can with plenty of individual teaching

You’ll see that Durham want you to meet 2 of the 4 criteria. In our case we meet both postcode ones. So it’s a bit of an anomaly as we’re not in need of a contextual offer but in terms of the area, it’s right I think.

@MrsMiaWallis all universities do it differently. Some by school, some postcode and some a combination.

If there are 4 bed plus houses in your postcode I doubt it would qualify for contextual offers. You can check here:
www.dur.ac.uk/study/ug/apply/contextualoffers/

Generally speaking the areas I’ve put in have come up with the results i’d expect. Where we live now is not particularly middle class or educated.

Aren't contextual offers made by school, not postcode?

Re postcodes, quite a few houses in our village street share the same postcode, but the houses vary from a pretty 8 bedroom Georgian vicarage lived in by millionaires, a farmhouse, some 3 or 4 bedroom modern and old houses and some small council houses.
The wealth of the families living in this postcode varies enormously.

What is a bit strange is that some people will argue that private schools aren’t worth it, you can get the equivalent in a state school, yet on the other hand they support contextual offers because independent school students have an advantage - but what is the advantage if state schools are just as good?

It’s such a complex issue; state schools are not all equal. Where we live, the nearest two schools have high proportions of children on pupil premium (65/70%), lots of troubled families and lots of issues, very little in the way of extra curricular and few parents who would take their children to museums! Dd and ds have gone instead to grammar and private schools (on a bursary). However we’re possibly moving for work when ds goes to sixth form - to a reasonably affluent small town. The comprehensive looks brilliant, wide range of subjects offered, plus lots of enrichment. There’s no comparison to the local schools here.

I have no issue with contextual offers and I hope children round here benefit. Our postcode is in the lowest quintile for the various measures universities use (POLAR etc) and the schools aren’t great. Ironically Dd would be eligible for a contextual offer from Durham due to our postcode. But she shouldn’t need it, as the good teaching and lack of disruption at her independent school and now grammar sixth form mean she should get the results for a standard offer anyway. Hopefully contextual offers will go to those who need them.

I'm a private school parent and don't care about contextual offers - if dd gets AAA in her exams she's going to get to go wherever she wants anyway.

I agree to some extent about contextual offers, though I think there can sometimes be a question mark over whether someone with a lower grade is going to cope sufficiently well on a degree course, even if their raw ability is high. And in some cases, as has been said, a student at a less good school might have had a great teacher, plus excellent home support, plus maybe a tutor, so their not great grade might actually be a perfectly fair reflection of their ability. It's a very difficult science to get right. As for inflated grade predictions, they happen to some extent everywhere, including hugely in some parts of the state sector. I suspect if students from a big independent school were consistently missing their predictions or underperforming at degree level then the universities would pretty quickly be reconsidering their future offers to its students.

And just as an add on, (apologies User 149, I’m on a roll!) I really don’t genuinely believe there is an argument that Emily in her large mixed ability State comp is on a level playing field with Emily sat in her small, selective Private class with excellent support on University access and potential inflation of grades (as Sevenoaks school have been doing). You could also argue that if the Private pupils aren’t advantaged at this stage, why are State pupils outstripping them in degree courses up and down the country when it genuinely becomes a level playing field? I get that from a Private sector parent point of view that Contextual Offers may seem unfair ..but with tongue firmly in cheek here as I don’t completely mean this (honestly), if Private parents were overly concerned about ethics of parity and equality then perhaps they shouldn’t have sent their child to a Private school in the first place!

:-) @user149799568, my teachers in the last two Private schools I attended (a million years ago) were all Oxbridge. To be fair, I’ve friends who teach in the State sector who are hugely experienced but from what I can see locally, it’s a mixed bag. Both DDs State Primary and Secondary have a number of newly qualified as well as teachers on the School Direct route (the latter admittedly not in sole control!). Yes Private schools can in theory take on grads or even a non grad with no teaching qualifications - that’s not the case though in the UK in usual general practice though is it as I understand it? The vast majority have QTS and the Private sector is still paying for the better educationally qualified, more holding Masters Degrees.

@SJaneS49

I’m really not sure how you would go about measuring what is an advantaged child at a Comp either as I don’t think it’s as simplistic as it sounds.

Agreed. A combination of family income, parental education, and personal circumstances are needed at a minimum. I'd prefer that contextual offers take into account all of these things. These could either be explained in the personal statement or possibly in a separate statement requesting a contextual offer. So Emily could receive a boost if she really did attend a dire comp, but not as much of a boost as a child who was from a family of long-term unemployed.

even at the top of a comp, the experience level of the teaching staff is going to be a lot more mixed, more recently qualified teachers and teachers in training.

Your perspective on teachers in a comp is interesting. Many Mumsnetters deplore that fact that indies can have teachers with no teaching qualifications at all.

Apologies @Student133 but while I appreciate you are writing what has been your own experience, there are some rather large generalisations here which really just don’t reflect reality.

“ I had both sets of grandparents and parents reading, taking me to clubs and museums, most people wont have that, ”

Most State school parents of my acquaintance regularly take their children to museums and please don’t assume that these are all middle class graduates either. Half term Facebook pages are full of parents on the obligatory day out in London Science/Natural History/British Museum /Imperial War Museum schlep in the South East, maybe with a show thrown in as well that’s been saved up for.As for regularly reading with children, again hardly uncommon. Club attendance of some sort ditto.

I get your point that a State school with a specialism may not have a huge variety of clubs outside its specialism but thats not to say it won’t have any. Most schools will have some form of sport/drama/musical offerings. Some Private schools (and honestly, it really isn’t universal, some will have a bit of a limited and not great offering)will have a broader range of clubs & activities of course as they sell themselves on their ‘added benefits’. Those benefits though can be found in clubs/tuition outside of school.

@SJaneS49
You're of course correct. The reason I make the point is that, in general from those who've I have spoken to, this is where the main gulf exists. If a state school has a well know culture of football say, then children will absolutely get this benefit, but the odds of them also having performing arts facilities is very unlikely. To make it clear, I certainly didn't feel like I've suffered relative to those who attended private schools, but I had both sets of grandparents and parents reading, taking me to clubs and museums, most people wont have that, so its important you ha e access to reasonable information. If there was an outstanding state school nearby, I'd probably send my kids to one, but you should be aware of what it can and cant do, which is the way my parents looked at this.

On a wider note, it is unfortunate that due to the lack of grammars or selective schools, that ones education is either down to your parents affording a post code or fees.

I've just had to make the decision, DD is Y6 so secondary application is done. She's bright, hardworking and (currently) very focused on success. She's also massively active with interest based extra curriculars, with 6 a week, and that's where she currently wants to go for a career.

We had a choice of 1. Good (Ofsted good) state 5 minutes walk away. Well liked by parents, most kids from her primary will go. Has been excellent on her interests, is less so atm. 2. Excellent top performing single sex state secondary in nearby town, would take 45 - 60 mins each way to travel, unlikely to get in as they are always oversubscribed. 3. Private. Would involve DH and I upping the ante in terms of work, meaning worse work life balance and less availability for DD.

We concluded that the single biggest predictor of academic success is parental attitude and support given right from the beginning of school. She's got that and will always have it. She has the ability to do well wherever she is and if we're not paying for school we can support with tutoring if necessary. And the local school will give her the time to pursue extra curriculars. So we went for 1. But I have no idea yet whether that was a good plan and I still wake up worrying about it. Good luck with your decision!

But then again @Student133 that is your own (valid) personal experience but we’re talking about one particular school here. What additional clubs and activities any State or indeed Private will offer will vary highly school by school. A State with a Sports specialism would have offered a great deal more on the extra curricular Sports front. DDs State school has a Performing Arts specialism and has a more extensive offering than the average Private on that front.

Basically, we’re not talking about always comparing the same Apples and Pears!

We have a few girls at our school from London whose parents can't quite afford London fees but can afford my daughter's school as it is much cheaper. They board weekly and get all the benefits of living by the coast in Cornwall with things like kayaking and paddleboarding after school. Worth thinking about! Have a look at trurohigh.co.uk - so much cheaper than London.

It’s a measure that can’t even easily be defined by private versus comp all the time. Our daughter’s private school has quite a few bursary students from low income families. As did other schools we’ve had children at. And while our local state grammars do have increasing proportions of PP and English 2nd language students, due to well established 11plus tourism...they also have a sizeable proportion of very affluent families too. Keen to take any ‘contextual‘ advantage where they can. Where on earth can you draw the line? What about children with other disadvantages? Such as major health issues or other non-financially related aspects of their life.

Student133 makes a really good point. The results from many state schools are fantastic but they just don't have the capacity to offer all the extra-curricular to everyone and it is that access to opportunity that makes all the difference.
We are definitely making sacrifices to make private school happen but I can already see why it is a fantastic investment because the skills it has taught them and the confidence they are gaining will be with them for life.