SW London boys, 11+ grammars and independents

@LibbyGray. Sorry we avoided the thread for a little while whilst we recovered from being on the waiting list. hahah

My DS CATS score at the beginning of year 5 were 133 and year 6 were 135, with 141/138 in Maths. He is academically gifted ( as in : only needs to be told once and he gets the concept, has an amazing memory both mental and visual and has always sat in top sets at both state and prep schools) and always earmarked for achieving scholarship level.. he is quirky and non-sporty and not everyone's cup of tea :-), but very bright and articulate.

They do prep the boys in prep-schools to some extent, but he was also tutored once a week for 2 months before the Grammar school exams, to work on his English. We also like to work on year 9 or 10 math's problems together ( for fun).
So to answer your question, we don't know yet the course of action, he can stay in his prep-school ( not ideal) and we will work out the 13+ route next year or he gets given one of the SW state schools like Sutton Grammar/Tiffins / Wallington - on Monday - and we can decide. It has been a very surreal experience as we thought he would sail through ( headmaster, tutor and me looking at his results generally... so he must have messed up ISEB/exams BIG TIME.. he did not seem that stressed to me, but who knows !)

To all, not seen anything on waiting list movements in the last few threads, is it because decisions have not been made quite yet? Will state schools offers on Monday start to make things a little clearer?

Its good to be back on the thread :-)

@GrammarHopeful

I fully understand your point. The "fights" are relentless and one has to decide what body is worth fighting and putting your energy to it and which ones are just best left alone. If you happen to be under Sutton SENLA, might be worth sending them the costs of both and let them decide (?), without going to court!

Best on your way forward.

@Ptarmigan68: agreed, we found them helpful as well, and DS had the same feedback re papers being as close as the real deal for the grammar ones.

@SpLDLSA: thanks for your thoughts. It would indeed be cheaper for our LA to fund the indie school than to continue with existing 1-on-1 provision in the EHCP. But given our history, I just can't bring myself to fighting them again, as it took over 18 months last time around with every trick in the book thrown in. And it cost a serious amount of money (self-funded ABA provision plus reports plus advocate costs of over £50k, none of which we ever got back thanks to the loophole that [at least at the time] prevented SENDIST from awarding costs; thus incentivising LAs to fob parents off for as long as possible).

We'll check the offer holders' events next week, but it's likely we will go the grammar route and use existing EHCP to supplement with whatever provision may be needed going forward. We will never benefit from any sport, and I have my doubts about much of extra curriculars too.

Coincidently, anyone knows/cares to share any stories of going from grammar to the private sector, if the former doesn't work out?

@GrammarHopeful
You can commit to an independent school with an EHCP, as long as you are not planning to ask them to pay for the fees.

Your SENLA is not going to like it and they can be extremely pushy, borderline rude/intimidating to coarse you away from an independent choice, but as I said, if you are not planning to use their funding to pay for the fees, then nothing to stop you. I am also assuming that the schools know of the EHCP, have a word with school you want and explain that you believe this is the best choice for your child and are aware that the LA is not going to be thrilled. Then go for it, and after all is done and dusted, you can inform your SEN caseworker about it.

However, if you are planning to ask for the EHCP to pay for the fees, I would recommend you have good evidence to justify your choice, financial evidence that it will cost them less or ala par and a good SEN solicitor to fight in court.

I do know of a parent who had a full EHCP, sadly dad lost job and needed to move DC to the maintained sector. The SENLA asked why the move, they explained why and ironically it was going to be cheaper for the LA to fund the private fees, than the hours in his EHCP in the maintained sector. So it can be done as well. Mind you this was Sutton SEN and not Surrey (not holding my breath with Surrey SEN).

Best of luck in your decision.

For anyone going through this next year the resources form ExamPapersPlus and their sister site Pretest plus are excellent and we have found those very useful. My boys have said that for them that was the most helpful preparation. They didn't find Bofa that helpful, the maths too easy. Atom is used at their school it has some good stuff but the questions for maths are very wordy and the style is different to most 11+ type papers. Hope that helps someone.

I also think it is important to frame what 'tutoring' means. Some parents spend a lot of their time doing prep with their children but don't consider that tutoring but it is in my mind. Our DC were not keen on listening to us ;) so we used tutors. Both from the state sector. Prep schools will do lots of work on VR/NVR which you just would not get in most state schools (perhaps some do in the grammar school areas).

That question re exam prep is asked every year I think my eldest had it a few years ago as did my son who had his interview this year... I think they wouldn't expect people not to have prepared whether that is a tutor or a parent that is able to help a little....

If you are at a prep school that prepares for these types of exams that helps but some don't as they look to the ISEB pretest (ok that was it this year initially but I am talking 'normally') and don't want people to leave at 11 in which case you need to do some extra work.

Re tutoring: We must be in the minority / my DS has a 10plus advance place and we probably did about a month of once weekly tutoring for that.

Boys shouldn’t really need tutoring for 10plus but 11 plus is more competitive and as we wanted to try grammars we ramped up to once weekly and a couple of half term time courses in the run up to those.

I believe Hampton asked the boys what their exam prep was and which other schools they applied to in the interview this year - personally I think that was a bit unfair on the boys but there you go. DS was quite honest - I did English with him and he had some outside help with Maths

"Whatever the school may say, I still think children from the state sector need experience of sitting timed assessments under exam conditions to level the playing field with the prep school applicants."

Also completely agree with this, but you don't need to be doing it from Y3!

DS mentioned his tutor at his Hampton interview (in a slightly long boring rundown of his week I think ) and they asked about it- he just said that it was to help him with exam technique as they didn't do any at his Primary. I think that's fine.

"Whatever the school may say, I still think children from the state sector need experience of sitting timed assessments under exam conditions to level the playing field with the prep school applicants."

Yes I agree with this. DS is in top sets at a state primary and is very academically able, but I would have felt really uncomfortable putting him forward for independent school exams with no tutoring at all. Exam technique practice is essential no matter how able they are. Experienced 11+ tutors know what they are doing and can be great at building a child's confidence and making it fun - I also found it very helpful, as a parent, to get guidance and reassurance in terms of helping DS with general preparation as the exam date drew nearer.

DS didn't have a huge amount of formal tutoring - he had one-hour sessions roughly once a month from August 2020 onwards, so maybe four or five sessions in total? - but it was definitely worth doing.

How's everyone doing with their decision making? It's still looking like Hampton for us but we want to wait and attend both the online welcome events (both schools are running them on the same evening, though fortunately not at exactly the same time ) before we make a final decision and release our RGS place.

The norm for tutoring to get into RGS Guildford is to start at the beginning of Year 5, I believe (although the school will tell you it is not necessary). Whatever the school may say, I still think children from the state sector need experience of sitting timed assessments under exam conditions to level the playing field with the prep school applicants.

Also- when we did KGS 10 plus they have really good feedback about quartile, what to work on, whether 11 plus was doable etc so well worth getting the feedback. It was the first exam DC had ever done and they were only 9 and a half! A year later it was a totally different experience and having sat the 10plus was really good practice.

@Thisonesfortheroad
I know a ton of state school ( and prep school) kids who didn’t get 10plus places at KGS and Hampton and got 11plus places- much better odds.
I would also completely disagree about not getting through the Tiffin first stage if you don’t get KGS 10plus and about tutoring from Year 3 to be honest! Year 4 is the absolute earliest around here and that’s generally because when a slot comes up you take it! Perfectly possible to ‘tutor’ yourself if your child will listen to you!

@Thisonesfortheroad,

Hi, I was reading your comment and if my assumption is right, your child is in Y5 and you are testing the water. He is also in a state school, if I am correct on this, then this is my opinion.

Top tier in a state school doesn't mean anything in top selective schools in this are, sadly said, but a fact. I work in the maintained sector and have a very academic child in the independent sector.

In short, depending on the school, your child needs tutoring. A very small %, and I mean a very small % of children make it in their own steam into these selective schools. Your local state school can always recommend your child for the free tutoring programme at Hampton Boys, if nothing else, it will give your child an idea of what is expected at the Tiffin's boys exam.

We have opted for no tutoring outside school as my DC is a very academic school and my personal approach is that in the right school for him, he will make it on his own steam, but that has been a hard call to make, particularly when pretty much all of his classmates are being tutored for the top schools in England. We are sticking to our position and so far it has been the right approach for us.

Tiffin Boy, you HAVE to tutor for that school from Y3, if your boy is in Y5 it might be too late, but you know how your boy goes. You need to pick a Tiffin tutor to get him up to scratch.

I know a lot of parents are going to disagree with my opinion, but it is just my opinion based on my field of work and my personal experience with a highly academic child in his own right.

Also, check his CATS results, most of the top schools in the area are looking for a 130 as a minimal result and if your school doesn't do one, you can expect his next school to do it as part of his entrance exams.

If your child has failed the KGS 10+ exam, I don't think he will make it through phase 1 at Tiffin unless he starts some serious tutoring right now.

You might want to have a look at some "less academic" independent schools if you have your heart set on the independent sector. Said this, none of our friends coming from top set state schools without tutoring got a placement offered in the schools they applied. BUT it is NOT impossible despite me painting a very dire picture.

ATOM, BOFFA are good online tutoring websites, but you might want to find an online tutor that has the experience on 11+ exams to do the tutoring. Private tutors for these exams are not cheap nor in abundance, but make sure the person has 11+ exam entrance experience as it is a whole different ball game.

Good luck!

Hi all, we are in a real struggle picking between three schools, including Emanuel (close to where we live), Reeds (close to where we want to move to), and St Johns (seems fantastic, but concerned a bit too far away). I nice problem to have I know, but the process of chosing seems even more stressful than the exam and results process!

A question on the sports side - i know that St Johns tries to be very inclusive and help all children get into a school team, would be interested in views on that for Emanuel and Reeds - ie is it only the best kids that make an A and B team that get to play weekend sport? What if DS is good but not a superstar?

Also a question for Reeds parents with DS's who get the train - how do they find the walk from the station to the school? On a dark winter evening it does not seem very appealing!

Think you're on the wrong thread @Alexendra1234

Sterou, thanks for your useful update. What’s the plan for your son now then. The whole proceeds stinks doesn’t it?! Out of interest what were your sons CAT scores as that will really help someone next year when they ate deciding which schools to apply for... thanks

@GrammarHopeful KGS is a wonderful school and we have heard of many that didn’t get interviews/get offers including ourselves. Well done to him.

@Singingrain1223, @Goingcrazy101, @Ptarmigan68, @FlyingPandas, @Sterou, @Iffiyas

Thank you very much for your kind words. Likewise, congratulations to your boys on getting the offers in this most unusual year.

DS had a little cry about Trinity ("But what have I done wrong? I answered all their questions and did all the 'social fake' stuff so well!" with great big eyes of his), but otherwise I think he is OK. He wasn't that married into CFC or Emanuel, his main objective is to go somewhere he can pursue serious learning with like-minded children, and his measure of that is how well they rank up on the league tables...

Now we just need to decide whether we will take KGS on their kind offer or brave the grammar route...

Does anyone on here have any experience of how easy it is for boys to settle in at 13+ at Hampton? We did a different route for eldest child. I would be interested to know how it was for anyone who had a son starting at 13+. They mix them all up after second year and I gather not all are too enthusiastic about that...Thx

@Jumpalicious the 11+ is always tortuous. Well done everyone for getting through it!

@245jammydoggers this is so lovely to hear. Our hearts our screaming Hampton and I’ve only heard positive things from parents. Thank you

@Summertime2 Ibstock offer arrived in the post this morning- good luck!

I have experience of Hampton and my history, classics and English loving child (only one from his primary ) is flourishing .
Desperate to be back there face to face .
Boys are kindhearted and have a love of learning .He has so much to say about lessons so excited -so many new experiences .
Wide variety of boys where everybody can find there crowd .