Secondary choices - middle class angst

pupils there called the local school pupils chavs

No different to writing off a section of society as ‘gammons’.

No university has nearly all DC from private schools. There’s some real rubbish on this thread with stereotypes being used to defend the indefensible. State school kids all stand to the side?! What total tosh. Dominic Raab was state educated. He’s a real wallflower isn’t he? Of course state pupils have personality and ambition. They have presence and personality. Do not ever think these young people are back numbers because it suits you to portray them as such. And the idea that no quiet or shy DC ever went to a private school - words fail me!

Actually you're right. It's not. Happy to give on that one. Only with the right ingredients.

@TagMeQuick " It's a 100% educational guarantee"
That is so far from the truth it is laughable.

@Wincher there's only one-ish test this year for private schools at 11+ the IESB so why not try it?

He's got nothing to lose. You'd need to mug up on verbal reasoning etc but if he's bright he'll have no problem. You might get an offer from somewhere...

Or otherwise if there are top sets that are well taught at your local state school, then why not? What I notice is that a lot of people who go to a state school tend to talk it up, even when it's a bit rubbish, from what I can tell, having had experience of both state and private now. They'd love to be able to go privately (vast majority) but don't have the money so there's a lot of tub thumping about how fantastic this or that school is. Whenever I talk about state schools to my friends who have kids there I'm always complimentary about the state schools but I know what really goes on, having been party to the whole thing for many years now.

Personally I'd go private. It's a 100% educational guarantee. Your child gets a completely different sort of education too. There's no other way to describe it. It's just much more rounded as you would well know, having been educated privately yourself.

Isn't it too late for Private? Both sitting the exam and the years of studying required?
I'm always staggered by how late people leave things. I considered primary and secondary as soon as I fell pregnant. Because if you did need to move, once possibly twice, moving is actually a very slow process.

The local schools are all excellent. Why would you live anywhere that wasn't? You've had 11+ years to consider all this. If you planned to move to get into a good school, you need to be planning it years before.

Surely the only option left open to you is the local school?

@deathbyprocrastination - it is. not sure why that is, except perhaps that competition has become a lot more fierce due to the greater number of international students. no idea. but I never thought that getting into London unis from a state school was ever all that difficult but it seems to be.

the downside - and that is something to consider is that kids from private schools or those who've been heavily tutored for A'level really struggle with independent study (in my experience) and dont always do all that well. Now this doesnt really matter because they will all do the right internship etc and land the right jobs but still it might be something to consider

@leavingvegas that's really depressing :(

@ChickensMightFly Yes, I'm sure you're right about that.

It would be interesting to see the 43% 5 good grades results of the state school split out into socio economic sub categories.
This figure is the whole school year.... if the school year cohort was split out into different backgrounds of the children (whichever meaningful demographic would apply, but lets say average household income) I bet the figure would be a lot different for the children whose profile is similar to the OP and this would likely be pretty reassuring to OP.

@flourandeggs well I assume that as has been demonstrated in the news today that even if they do it wont make much of a difference when it comes to their career prospects.

@deathbyprocrastination - unfortunately, my impression is the opposite. Since I first joined my uni (its one of the top one in the UK) there are fewer and fewer students from state schools. British students are almost exclusively all from private schools which is a bit sad.

@leavingvegas but will they go so far beyond what their talents actually merit and then make a complete shit show of their jobs like some people I could mention who are in power right now?!!!

@leavingvegas agreed. Happily though, I really do think the world is changing (albeit at a slower rate than one might hope for) - universities and employers are increasingly wise to that kind of oblivious entitlement and inability to see the advantages one has benefitted from. It does depend a lot of the industry/university etc though!

@deathbyprocrastination - absolutely. On the one hand - it really winds me up because they feel entitled to a 1st (but are just not bright enough). But I also realized that no amount of ski holidays etc will create that sense of entitlement in my own DC. And it works - those boys will go far just because of how they come across. And the other kids just won't in some ways precisely because they realize that the world is a complex place (having come from a state school) but also because they dont have this blind self-belief installed in them from a young age which wont be dented whether they get a 2.2 or a 1st

Seems that attitudes have not changed much.

(Yes, I'm sure this is not representative of all parents and students, but it's clearly representative of some).

Louiselhrau my son (in Year 12) has made a new friend this year who previously attended a private school (and a private boarding school at that). DS has learnt an awful lot of new swear words (including some in several languages, does this make it educational?) from him.

Yes @leavingvegas that definitely a consideration for me - whether you see it as beneficial confidence or entitlement is a matter of perspective.

In my day job I run courses for secondary school age children and I've been quite blown away by the difference in attitude. White middle class boys at private schools (and I'm afraid it is that demographic in my experience) will literally walk into the room, sit down and put their feet up on the seats while the boys and girls from state schools stand awkwardly at the side lines. I'm sure that sort of confidence does work well in a job interview but a bit of sensitivity and self-awareness would go a long way as far as I'm concerned.

@SJaneS48 true - but I think they might have been in a smallish minority from their peer groups, many of whom probably could not have become thoughtful and effective legislators. I think my point still stands that to some extent early exposure to something does help you become educated about it. And I am certainly not celebrating the fact my children have friends who have FSM as a social tick box exercise for my liberalness, I am just glad really that my kids are having fun with friends and not judging them whatever their financial situation might be and if that helps them go on and become thoughtful adults, great.

@coolingbreezes, “ Of those who wouldn't consider private, I suspect that many or most also wouldn't have got themselves in a situation of only living within the catchment of atrocious schools. For those less well off, that's not a choice.”

Agreed. And I’d agree with the PP that a lot of are guilty of some form of hypocrisy and personally as it involves our DC then I know that I would make the same choices again. We all want the best for our children & the the hell are we to criticise anyone else for theirs? We were always going to go State (and DH ruled out grammar due to the preponderance of coaching giving MC an advantage). DD isn’t at the local State though, she has a music place at a better performing out of area. She has had private music and singing lessons since about the age of 4. While DH might not see the hypocrisy in our choice (or letting DD do a music audition and testing when he’d rejected the grammar tests!), I know I do!

It's also a personal choice about what you aspire to for your children.
I work in a university and most of our students come from private schools. On the whole, they are no smarter than kids from state schools but they definitely come across as a lot more entitled. Now whilst that sense of entitlement annoys me as their teacher, it will also take them far career wise. If that's what you want for your kids then going private makes sense.

Quite honestly @flourandeggs I think that the answer could realistically be either! Tony Benn didn’t exactly have a poor start in life along with numerous politicians we could name!

And as for
Louiselhrau
Go private. You'll be horrified by what goes on in normal schools and what they get away with. At least you won't have them indoctrinated with the latest buzzwords of the masses.

If you can afford it. Private private private all the way, I can't bare the whole liberal left education system
"You'll be horrified by what goes in on normal schools.... the masses'

Eh, not sure where to start with this! You sound absolutely delightful, let’s hope your DC learn a little more tolerance!

@PresentingPercy its not social one-up-manship, it is basic humanity - their friends tell them they are on FSM, my kids don't judge them even though they aren't on FSM themselves. Simples. I didn't say it was great that they know children who are on FSM, I said that they don't judge their friends who are on FSM. It helps when we talk about eg Marcus Rashford's campaign around the meal table eating our organic home cooked food that they are friends with people affected by it. Let us pretend for a moment that both of our children got the same degree, say economics, and went on to become politicians. Who do you think could help legislate more effectively to help those who struggle with paying for the basics of life - the adult who has very little experience of the real lives of those affected, or the one who despite having a different family background themselves has spent time in the homes of those kids who do have FSM and experienced what a home meal is for them, have stood behind them in the lunch queue, and who have talked to them about how it feels in a non judgemental way? FSM isn't a label it is a fact and one that we should feel deeply ashamed of in our wealthy nation.

Loads of posts! I actually came on to answer the reply about safety nets and MC families always having the option of switching to private. Yes, it's true that some would never opt for private in any circumstances due to personal conviction. But that safety net works in many ways. Of those who wouldn't consider private, I suspect that many or most also wouldn't have got themselves in a situation of only living within the catchment of atrocious schools. For those less well off, that's not a choice.

It's this kind of comment that puts me right off private education. Imagine having to hang out with other parents who talk about 'the masses'

You seem very defensive about this. As I thought I'd made clear, I don't think it is morally superior to send your children to state schools when you can afford a private school. But I do think that communities work better when different sorts of people have as much access to each other as possible and therefore I think going to school in as diverse an environment as possible has its benefits. I can't see how valuing that is social one-up-manship it's just a matter of what you think is important.

I don't think it trumps all other considerations when deciding on schools but I do think it is an important consideration. If you don't, that is fine but there's no reason to assume that the motives of people who do are shallow/selfish.

And, as I said, I don't know if at my Dd's school people have any idea how is on free school meals, it is nothing to do with 'labelling'! It is a widely accepted measure that is know to affect outcomes for individual students etc

Go private. You'll be horrified by what goes on in normal schools and what they get away with. At least you won't have them indoctrinated with the latest buzzwords of the masses.

If you can afford it. Private private private all the way, I can't bare the whole liberal left education system