A-level choices: engineering-----architecture

I might be wrong, but I don't think engineers are mathematicians, in how I understand mathematicians. I mean, really, they are not solving Fermat's theorem day in day out.

I’m a civil engineer. You are correct, engineers are not mathematicians in the purest sense, but strong mathematical skills are needed to undertake/understand applied engineering design and modelling.

I am an architect, I'm a partner in a largish practice so can help you with undemanding subjects related to building engineering.

Architecture
The top uni is The Bartlet which is part of UCL. By far, all of the tip architects or firms led by what the media refer to as Starchitects come out of there. Its design led and hugely competitive to get into.

A couple of posters on here have mentioned Bath, that is an OK university for architecture but not considered to be very strong on design, ans is far more practical. Personally, I do not tend to recruit from Bath.

One point not mentioned here is to qualify is a long road, 3 year degree, 1 year minimum in practice, 2 year diploma, then 1 year part time. Most are around 26 at least when qualified. Engineerimg paths are much quicker.

Most architects are then junior for at least 5 years, large projects will often have students, a newly qualified architect, a project architect, a senior or associate and a partner. So it is important to be able to take instruction, and to work collaboratively with the rest of the design team (including engineers) Architects lead the rest of the design team, so civil engineers, mechanical and electrical engineers and structural engineers are led on projects by architects. Structural engineers are considered or treated with higher regard than mechanical and electrical engineers. Structural is maths based lots of calculations of how structures will behave. Architects do not do this, they are not insured to do it. Mechanical and electrical engineers design how the building will be serviced as the name suggests in both mechanical and electrical terms. They specialise generally in one or the other and then choose plant, inform architects of sizes for plant, distribution etc. Civil engineers are probably the bottom of the hierarchy and they design roads, road layouts, parking and communicate with tbe local authorities on those matters.

Studying architecture is considered hard but an enjoyable course if chosen correctly. Students work long hours, its subjective as it is design based and you have to be able to take or learn to take criticism. It isn't exam based, communication and confidence is extremely important during education and certainly as a role.

Combined Architecture and engineering courses again are not respected by architects so I wouldn't advise those.

Architecture is not anticipated to be automated any more than it is now, technology helps speed up drawing but much of the role is not drawing its collaborative working, designing, specifying materials, understanding legislative documents, running the design team and writing quite often engthy documents. And sadly like lots of roles now it is answering dozens of emails.

However, if you have been following Grenfell case its main threat is any mistake made can have enormous consequences and enormous costs associated. Insurance is very expensive and mistakes can end in the extreme in prison.

I would agree about maths, it's a tool to solve problems not something I studied for the love of it. IIRC Further Maths is not as much work as a whole different A level because it makes the normal Maths A level feel easy.

If he really doesn't want to do Further Maths he might as well do the subjects he likes. (Have a 15 and 16 year old and know the how much they listen to me).

As long as he's doing the Maths/physics/Chemistry he has a good choice of engineering degree courses. Don't get hung up on Cambridge or "the best" courses. Many less impressive universities run extremely good engineering degrees and work closely with industry. I did the Cambridge engineering course and if I had my time again I'd have gone straight to a normal civil engineering degree at a university with a proper dedicated department like Imperial or Newcastle.

Big Bang Fairs, Engineering Council and the engineering institution websites have sections aimed at students on "What is engineering " etc. From your description he sounds like he would make a great engineer and never be out of work. But he may need to discover it for himself, when he's a little older. I had civil and aeronautical both in mind for a while and investigated them both before UCAS form time.

So in summary as long as doing the Maths and 2 sciences he might as well do Photography, I can't see it rules anything major out and gives him a useful creative edge. The only thing worth swapping it for would be Further Maths.

DH feels a lot of design has become about computer programming and not enough about engineering. Engineers have to know what the design should be so they know the computer is correct. Putting in duff info results in poor design. Poor design is expensive to build. Poor design might have to be redesigned so the employer loses money. It doesn’t matter who you work for. Most companies need to make money and they won’t if mistakes are made. DH had a chartered structural engineer design a steel frame that was bigger than the actual building. It was a lot of work and the design was useless. Structural engineering tends to suit the engineers that are happy to sit in their teams beavering away - especially at the big consultancies. DH is FIStructE but doesn’t go near it these days.

A good place to get info about all branches of engineering is to look at the Engineering Council web site. It will then link you to the individual institutions and you can see what they offer to young people who are Interested. If he’s building things, then he’s an engineer!

I might be wrong, but I don't think engineers are mathematicians, in how I understand mathematicians. I mean, really, they are not solving Fermat's theorem day in day out.

No, I think it's more they need to be good at maths and willing and able to do some pretty hard stuff, using as tools of the trade.

Can you tell me a bit more about what people in this field do nowadays - apart from research route? And what kind of work there is and what is it like? (I don't know any chemists; I think some chemistry departments were very short-sightedly closed in the UK at some point? )

Lots of good chemistry depts stayed open though! As to what work ... again, lots of different paths. DH was in industry - high performance polymer development, getting towards materials science. I'm in a bit of a niche writing software, modelling chemistry eg how drugs interact with protein molecules using computers and maths.

He loves chemistry and he says that loves it because he sees its immediate applicability and usefulness. This might develop as he gets older. I also think the way some subjects are at GSCE level might put people off and actually the subjects themselves are quite different at the Uni level or even A level.

Just backtracking to this for a moment - is there any reason he isn't leaning towards chemistry? Some branches of chemistry need good maths but others don't - well, like all stem subjects some is needed including a grasp of statistics but not everyone needs to do particularly tricky stuff and uni courses will include maths options. (I'm a chemist)

DS1 studied aerospace and spacecraft design engineering (literally rocket science). Those who didn’t have A levels in FM and Chemistry had to do additional courses in the first year to bring their knowledge up to standard.

DS2 has a MEng in Mechanical Engineering with an emphasis on manufacturing systems and robotics.

Maths is central to both these degrees, and I think that if your DS doesn’t enjoy maths then these type of engineering courses would not be for him.

Both DS are post grads and both still use high level maths in their engineering jobs. However both have loved maths from primary school!

Btw re becoming a mathematician - DS1 went to an open day at Bristol Uni in Y12. The lecturer explained that the pure maths degree suits those who love the elegance of maths. Whereas engineers use the maths to make real things. At that point DS realised he would prefer engineering!

Trying to think of a gentle way to say this, can't - shouldn't your DS be the one doing the research into what he wants to do? It sounds like you're getting info ready so you can direct him in the area that you think he should go.

He's old enough to do all his own background research into subjects, careers, universities, etc.

In these extraordinary times flexibility is good- so many of my dds friends with excellent degrees from a v good uni in aero engineering have had their grad scheme roles cancelled.

For the avoidance of doubt, I wasn't implying that you need to be sat in an office at 3am to make money from engineering. Nor that engineers can't be well paid. Of course they can.

Simply that my brother in law works incredibly hard for a salary that he feels doesn't reflect how highly qualified he is and his level of seniority. It's not for lack of looking for alternative jobs in his industry either.

I think doing an MEng in Mechanical Engineering gives a good base for a career in many areas, my son did his at Leeds, in the fourth year they specialise in an area of Engineering that interests them. He went on to do a phd and works as a research and development scientist and throughly enjoys it. They do need to be good at maths though.

All engineers can make money if they are commercially minded and even run a company!

Not necessarily their own, of course - some go into managing manufacturing, that type of thing.

Have a look at headstart courses for next summer- not sure if they will be on line or face to face but they are an excellent opportunity to explore what engineering is and is different routes.
Also many unis do study days/ taster days for different subjects- again who knows what will happen next year.
Loads on line about becoming an engineer. Look at the Big Bang fair- will be on line this year.

Ds is doing Civil Engineering. It is a very broad course everywhere & you can go into many different specialties. However when we were looking around it became apparent that most courses are slightly skewed in a particular direction, often depending on what was going on in the local area historically.

Ds ended up preferring 2 courses where there is a lot of collaboration with the Architecture Dept - Bath (where he is) and Sheffield (which was his insurance).

But as someone else said, it does not matter too much in terms of future career where you study (I can vouch for that having done the same degree).

My gut feeling is that there are generally more jobs available for engineers rather than architects.

DH is a civil and structural engineer and also works on highways and environmental engineering. There are always jobs for engineers and university doesn’t matter too much. Ability to do the job accurately and quickly does! DH is an employer and has interviewed and employed hundreds of engineers down the years! It’s a mid sized consultancy. DH has worked with very many architects. Few architects trust themselves to do the calcs for their complex buildings!

However for any of these careers, he needs maths. There are great courses at Bath for Architecture but other universities re great choices too. The profession fluctuates though and continued work isn’t guaranteed in times of depression.

Ditto Civil and Structural engineering. Environmental engineering (part of civil engineering) is the big thing right now. Structural engineering is very maths based and computer programs are what it’s all about. If he likes buildings, he needs to consider if he’s interested in the design of buildings or doing the calcs to make them stand up!

Maths and Physics gets him anywhere he wants to go . I wouldn’t recommend general engineering for most students. And aerodynamicists cannot find work! So few jobs out there. If he’s interested in the built environment he should look at Civil and Structural Engineering. Building Services engineering is also an option. Look at MEng courses if you can and they must be accredited. Sheffield, Bristol, Southampton, Nottingham, Leeds, Bath, Loughborough, Portsmouth, Surrey and Warwick are all excellent for Civil Engineering. Not sure about Architecture!

All engineers can make money if they are commercially minded and even run a company! Sitting in an office until 3am really isn’t required!

DS went to Surrey for ME in 2015 and wouldnt recommend it, they started taking way too many students, they were having to use local cinemas because the lecture halls were too small, library overcrowded putting freshers out of town and there was absolutely no pastoral care. DS dropped out in the end

It may (possibly) be that the 'RG' tag makes some difference for students doing some sort of arts/humanities degree with the intention of going into some sort of 'graduate scheme' which doesn't require specific skills. I don't think that reflects well on recruiters.

STEM isn't really like that. For engineering, there are many excellent courses at non-RG unis (Surrey as mentioned, Bath, Loughborough just off the top of my head and not exhaustive!) and appropriate for different types of applicant. Links to industry may be important, which factors in to where some of the good engineering departments are located (nowadays for some fields 'industry' will include science parks).