DD Year 8, struggling at grammar

the difference is that if you tutor a child like mad for GCSE and they manage to get a 9 - that's it, they've got their 9, end of story.

Well yes, until their raft of heavily tutored-for 9s sees them studying 4 A Levels and being encouraged to go for Oxbridge.

the child who will really thrive at a grammar is not just the one who's capable of doing the work, it's the one who actively enjoys being stretched, who has a real interest in academic work - the type who'll enjoy being entered for a maths Olympiad or chatting to their teacher about the intricacies of French grammar.

at the idea of Grammars being full of that sort of child! I think it's quite dangerous to promote the idea that Grammar schools are ivory towers, full of intense academics. It puts some families off entering their children for the exam. Yes there will be a minority who are very academically inclined, but the majority play Xbox and hang around in town with their mates like most children of their age. I've had 3 ds go to our local state Grammar and they all thrived w/o any extra subject tutoring. None of them or their friends would ever have chatted about any subject full stop unless they were made to, let alone its intricacies! They all enjoyed school, mainly for the social side, and all did well, but one did describe it fondly as a bear pit!

Could be that everyone is struggling OP?

These are weird times

My DS is struggling a bit (also much more tired and anxious) when previously he didn’t

Can you find out? I think a lot of teens are struggling with school tbh

@crazycrofter That’s huge progress but probably not enough to level the playing field. I like the way the well to do Brummies were up in arms at the thought someone who had been disadvantaged all their life might all of a sudden get a better shot at improving their life chances.

@Zodlebud this sort of arrangement (although not quite as radical) has been introduced for the Birmingham super-selective grammars in the last few years. They ring fence at least 25% of their places for pupil premium applicants, who have to reach a lower 'qualifying score' to get in - all pupil premium applicants who reach the score and live in the catchment area are offered a place, even if that amounts to more than 25% of PAN. If fewer than 25% of places are filled this way, pupil premium applicants from outside the catchment area get priority. There was a bit of a fuss when the 25% rule came in and a much bigger fuss last year when the catchment areas were introduced, as some wealthy areas just outside the city LEA area were excluded!

@Zodlebud - completely agree.

As a quick add on, I do have a ? about the assumption that the pace of non Selective’s might be a lot less pressured as I think that depends on whether the school streams. DD did very well in her SATS and is in the top streams at a good state secondary where the expectations and targets are high. I would agree though that OPs DC is likely to find themselves more one of the clever ones than decidedly average or bottom of the heap.

Really it depends on what the options are. Is there a good noon selective school she can attend? Would she prefer that? Are all the other schools terrible and this is really the only decent option? In which case it's about her being used to not being top like she was at secondary school.

I totally feel her, I was top in everything at primary, no tutoring as this was WC family in the 90s and distinctly average at best once amongst the top kids. It's hard, and a move most be the best option

Going totally off topic here, but what if 50% of all grammar places went to children on FSM? They take the same test but as they are most likely at a tutoring disadvantage then their pass rate is adjusted for that specific cohort. Maybe combined with a “suitability for grammar school” assessment completed by their primary school?

All of a sudden you don’t need to live next door in a house with ridiculously high prices or be rich enough to access tutoring.

Exam results at non grammars will improve as not so many children from better off families will be getting into the grammars. But more importantly, children who would thrive in a grammar environment but don’t have access to tutoring etc would finally stand a chance of getting in.

The concept of grammar schools I have no issue with. The fact they have become places full of better off children whose parents can pay for tutoring to get them there I have a huge issue with.

My DD is at a selective school and as a result of a badly planned change of admissions arrangements, there are children who shouldn't be there. Hence it's a challenging cohort as the pace is too fast for some and perfect for many.

OP - talk to the school to find out the reality of her statements. If she is in the bottom quartile, I would move her. The pace gets much faster in year 9 and I wouldn't want my child to be merely surviving rather than thriving.

To qualify what I said earlier (about whether a child is the right fit for grammar) I would definitely agree with others to speak to the school, in case it's more a confidence issue. When I went to Oxford (about 100 years ago) I nearly dropped out in my first year, because I found it hard to cope with being surrounded by incredibly bright people when I'd always been used to being top of the class. Luckily I had a lovely tutor who sat me down with a cup of coffee and told me it was absolutely fine to be middle or bottom of the cohort (someone has to be!) and that I was doing perfectly OK and in the nicest possible way I should get a grip. Once I'd accepted that, I was fine. (And in the end, we all got the same degree grade.)

Indeed, from the people I know with children at grammars, it’s either been professional tutoring (usually from Year 4) or graduate level parents coaching with the aid of books/papers. I’m not saying no child who came into the 11+ cold passes (although that’s been my direct lived experience) but I would imagine they are a minority.

TBH to me, "Tutoring" for the 11+ doesn't just mean literally employing a tutor. It might mean working with parent/relative/family friend at home or working through practice papers in your own time which are then marked. Of course not all families have the time/ability to do this.

I can believe that not every child at grammar school had a tutor. I doubt there are more than a handful (and probably none at super selectives) that did no preparation at all and had never so much as seen a practice paper in advance.

Gah - that should have read ‘few here who go to grammars don’t have some form of tutoring’.

No child I know @AndThatsNotRight - because we can only both speak from our own experiences can’t we. I know of a couple who have taken the 11+ from DDs Primary who didn’t have coaching. The children I know who do go to grammar (and I live in a grammar county) all had either professional or parental tutoring. It’s not obviously a scientific analysis based on all children across Kent but I wouldn’t find betting that few here who go to grammars had some form of tutoring. A fairer system would be one in which all children had in school tutoring and all took the test or selection was made on SATS. Sorry but I maintain it is an unfair system.

I got in myself many years ago with only the few practice papers we did at school and nothing more.

“Why is the 11+ the only exam where it seems to be considered immoral to give your child some practice?”

It’s not immoral - parents are just doing what they feel is going to give their DC the best opportunity - it isn’t a fair system though. I’m Kent based. Tutoring for the 11+ started in Year 4 for quite a large number of her peers, all with middle class parents who could afford it. Some had parental tutoring from graduate level parents. DDs Primary like many doesn’t tutor for the 11+. When DH (Chair of Governors) & the Headteacher went through the 11+ back in 2018, there were a couple of questions not covered in the curriculum.

No child I know (and I appreciate some may but I’d suggest they are a minority ) who was put in for the 11+ without tutoring has passed it. So you end up with a two tier secondary school system - the D.C. with better off parents at the grammars and working class children at the non selective often less good Secondaries. There is something inherently wrong about this surely??

(As a rider, DH from a political standpoint completely against DD taking the 11+. I would have done the tutoring in a heartbeat though and DD ended up getting a music place at a good out of area secondary. As we’ve paid for years of music lessons I’ll hold my own hand up for gaming the system!).

But this is off thread a bit - OP definitely speak to the school and I agree, her perception of failure might not be a reality. I wouldn’t jump to any decision but monitor it over this year - they’ve only been back half a term and even with home schooling have missed out in 2020. Give it some time I think.

Why haven't you heard from the school. Phone them and ask for a call with herEnglish teacher.

She may be beating herself up about not coming top. It can happen that kids who were always top of the form in primary go to grammar and find themselves with lots of other very bright kids. They can't all come top so some end up feeling like they're failing when they absolutely aren't.

@BaconAndAvocado I would definitely contact the school to get their take on it. Girls are notorious for putting a lot of pressure on themselves and when put together in a competitive grammar environment it can feel worse. Here’s the thing though - in every single school, someone has to be bottom. Outlook and positivity, resilience and attitude to that depends on whether your DD can cope. Some children are fine with it, for others being the top of a non selective school can actually be far better for them mentally. I wouldn’t have a knee jerk reaction to this, take your time, but moving her to a different school might be a solution.

Here’s the thing about grammars. They are not just full of bright children, the pace of learning there is far faster and in depth. Even bright children can struggle. Like it or not they do also have a significant number of children who have been heavily tutored to pass. I know several who were averagely bright, tutored like bonkers to get in, and are now having to continue tutoring just so their child can keep up. At one of our three local grammars they actually have a real problem with low level disruption in classes because these children are messing around to hide the fact they are struggling.

As a child who sat and passed the 11+ with flying colours with no formal tutoring (we practiced speed, exam technique and initially some familiarisation with the types of question at home using Bond and CGP books), I honestly don’t think you need lots of tutoring to pass if your child is naturally bright. We asked our head if she was grammar material and was met with a resounding yes, but also that we were exceptionally brave to not tutor.

If your daughter was heavily tutored then it would be playing on my mind whether or not the grammar environment is actually the right one for her. If she wasn’t then you absolutely need to work with the school on this. Teenage girls, especially in years 8 and 9, go through an awful lot hormonally and just general growing up. She might just need some help navigating through the self doubt.

When she says her recent test scores have been very low are they actually very low? Is she a perfectionist who expects to get top scores all the time? Are they low compared to other pupils? Are they actually low objectively if they weren't compared to a grammar school class (e.g. it's "B" grade work which is actually pretty good but half her class is doing "A" grade work?)

Do you feel that she scraped into grammar school or was she a pretty high flier in Year 6 (will give you an idea as to whether this is or isn't the right school for her)

I agree with others that you should contact the school. If it is a case that she will always find it hard, then I would suggest considering moving her elsewhere - if she's confiding in you now that she's worried, struggling for another 4 years is probably not the best plan.

Finally, does your daughter have an idea about how to "fix" the issue? When my DS comes to me (rarely) with school concerns, it's often because he wants me to do "something" - even if he doesn't voice it himself. So for example, when he came and told me he thought he would fail Physics GCSE, he wanted to get a tutor - but he wanted me to be the one to suggest that.

Do contact tutor or head of year. Find out if there are any grounds to her belief and let them know she is feeling like this. Do factor in the emotional roller coaster of puberty too, especially when periods are just starting.

That said, I remember reading that mixed ability teaching benefits highest ability girls who have low confidence. Some clever kids thrive as a bigger fish in a less competitive pond.

My DD is one of the high flyers at Grammar and she finds it hard! It is hard, they work fast and at a high level.
My DD is not a natural at maths though and that makes her feel as if she's struggling. She had a lovely teacher in yr7 who put it this way to her - she is average in a class which is full of above average students. If she was in a class with kids with a normal range of ability, she would be one of the top students.
Lockdown has probably made going back into school really hard work for many kids. I think with high school generally kids have to be much more organised these days. You do have to be on top of both course work and homework and falling behind can quickly make it feel quite chaotic.
Take half term to catch up. See if there are any specific topics she's finding hard.
My DD is in yr 9 now and seems to have finally found her feet more socially which helps a lot.

I would talk to the school. See if she is genuinely struggling or just feels as if she is. Then take it from there. Look at other school options if you feel it will be the right thing to do, but make sure there is a genuine issue.

HunkyPunk the difference is that if you tutor a child like mad for GCSE and they manage to get a 9 - that's it, they've got their 9, end of story. But tutoring an average ability child like mad for the 11+ is going to potentially determine where they go to school for the next 7 years, and might end up with them being in a school that's not right for them. IME it's not just about ability, it's about outlook - the child who will really thrive at a grammar is not just the one who's capable of doing the work, it's the one who actively enjoys being stretched, who has a real interest in academic work - the type who'll enjoy being entered for a maths Olympiad or chatting to their teacher about the intricacies of French grammar. If you've got a child who's fairly able but not terribly academically inspired, particularly if they're likely to need ongoing tutoring to keep up, then they're probably not going to flourish in a grammar school environment.

This is why I'm not keen on expanding grammars. 95% of parents insist their kids are in the 20% for whom a grammar school education is the best choice. It's hard work that doesn't come easily to everyone.

I would look to support your DD by creating a proper study routine and making sure she knows how to study and revise.

It is certainly true that some DC will need to work harder than others to keep up at grammar school. But I would be looking to make sure she is working hard and has a good study routine in place before taking drastic measures.

It is highly unlikely that all of the DC who have outperformed her in tests are geniuses (a small minority will be). It is far more probable that they know how to revise and have put in hard work. Is your DD coming home and doing her homework and revision or is she reaching straight for Netflix?