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Original poster

Teacher training bursaries slashed/axed in response to pandemic (but Classics still qualifies)

82 replies

noblegiraffe · 13/10/2020 21:29

Next year's teacher training bursaries have been announced and it's clear that they're expecting that there will be a large boost in people applying to teach due to the covid recession.

Bursaries of £24k for secondary maths, physics, chemistry and computer studies students
£10k for MFL and classics
£7k for biology

Other subjects and phases will not be supported.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/funding-initial-teacher-training-itt/funding-initial-teacher-training-itt-academic-year-2021-to-2022

They'd better hope that the increase in recruitment isn't accompanied by a large number of teachers jumping ship in response to how they've been treated by the government, especially as there's a concern there won't be enough experienced teachers available to mentor the bumper crop of trainees.

www.tes.com/news/coronavirus-huge-concerns-over-post-covid-school-mentor-shortage

Also....Classics still on the list. They all ship out to private schools the minute they qualify. The Tories always find money for their mates... Angry

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almosteverything · 14/10/2020 15:42

It would be very interesting to see the rationale for the decision (and please let's not just have the boring knee-jerk MN 'because all Tory MPs went to private schools' trope). Is there evidence that the subjects on the list would be under threat if more teachers are not recruited to teach them? Yes, it's a shame that Classics isn't taught at more state schools, but it would also be a massive cultural shame if the subject died out. Does the economic argument stack up? Pupils doing Classics, even those at private schools, are still pupils, who will (largely) go on to enter the UK workforce and generate tax revenue for the economy. The classicists I know well are variously now teachers (both state and private), lawyers, librarians, accountants and executive managers. Is there less of an economic (not an emotional) argument for investing in their teaching than that of others? I don't know the answers to either of these questions, but I would like to - rather than seeing the same old 'Classics is an arcane subject for poshos' reaction that I have met all my life.

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 14/10/2020 15:03

Here are last year's bursary figures:

Subject Scholarship Bursary
Physics £28,000 £26,000
Secondary mathematics £28,000 £26,000
Computing £28,000 £26,000
Languages £28,000 £26,000
Chemistry £28,000 £26,000
Geography £17,000 £15,000
Trainees cannot receive both the scholarship and training bursary.

Bursaries are also available in the below subjects
Subject Bursary
Classics £26,000
Biology £26,000
Design and technology £15,000
English £12,000
History £9,000
RE £9,000
Music £9,000
Art and Design £9,000
Business Studies £9,000
Primary with mathematics £6,000

So the subjects they have decided to retain are the obvious ones for the economy where we currently import skills - maths, comp sci, languages and sciences.

Of all the rest, they retain Classics.

If those teachers had been trained for the state sector it would have still been a dubious decision in the circumstances where every other 'not completely vital' subject has been dropped, but indefensible when the money is being spent for the benefit of the private sector which is where most of those teachers will end up.

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MrsR87 · 14/10/2020 12:07

@foxesandsquirrels

I doubt an influx of teachers due to a drying job market will help teacher retention. Going for teaching because there's nothing else is a pretty low bar. They'll just leave in droves when this is over or once they step into a classroom or have to teach Y8 science with an English degree
Pretty much this. I’ve mentored many PGCE students and NQTs over the years and the ones who were doing it for the right reasons would have done so with or without the bursaries. (I trained in the days when it was £2000/£3000, can’t remember which, and it was taxable so it made no odds to me). In my experience of working with universities and talking to other mentors there are lots of students who train for the bursary and then leave within a couple of years-indeed it makes up part of their career plan.

I’ve always said that if they truly want to beat the retention crisis, they should use the money to incentivise staying the the profession for longer periods of time. A bonus at 5 years/ 10 years/ 20 years etc.

mimbleandlittlemy · 14/10/2020 11:59

@WhenSheWasBad

I’m pretty appalled Classics is on there. I’ve never seen classics taught anywhere other than Private schools.

Also loads of Biologists (and chemists) teach Physics.

DS just left Requires Improvement comp that taught Latin for GCSE to top set linguists, which he did and loved, and Classical Studies A level. Most of the private schools round here don't teach anything but Spanish and Mandarin now.
borageforager · 14/10/2020 11:11

I love Latin, studied it for 7 years (at my private all girls school), and would be thrilled if my kids were offered it at their school, but I wouldn’t single it out amongst all the funding crises we have for schools right now, to support the training of Classics teachers above almost all else.

CarrieBlue · 14/10/2020 09:53

@WhenSheWasBad

I’m pretty appalled Classics is on there. I’ve never seen classics taught anywhere other than Private schools.

Also loads of Biologists (and chemists) teach Physics.

Loads of biology and some chemistry teachers teach physics because there is a shortage of physics teachers (and chemistry teachers too). Biology pgce places are usually oversubscribed.

Science secondary pgce expects that you teach all three to gcse, specialism only comes into play for a-level. There are not enough physics graduates becoming teachers and haven’t been for a very long time.

Ionacat · 14/10/2020 08:34

It’s not that there shouldn’t be classics and it’s great that it is being taught in schools but why is it getting prioritised for bursaries when primary maths and other subjects aren’t. There is a real need for primary maths specialists. My daughter in year 5 now has the maths specialist as her class teacher. The difference is noticeable. (She does really enjoy maths, and happily does extra..... and he is stretching her in a way that her previous teachers who mainly stuck to the planning didn’t.)

anxiousstanley · 14/10/2020 08:00

The state school I work in has a flourishing Classics Department and we currently have two trainees.

almosteverything · 14/10/2020 07:12

Noble, I so often agree with you, and I do think you have a case about funding priorities, but you lost me at the 'hardly vital for the economy' line. I'm a classics grad (who never set foot in a private school) and I've been happily contributing to the economy all my working life, thanks very much. IME the majority of people end up working in roles that use very little of their specific subject knowledge. I spent part of my career working in finance and never needed to use anything beyond primary school maths. Most jobs use skills, not knowledge - and Classics is just as useful a subject in this regard as other humanities and languages (arguably more so, as it blends the two). Arguing that funding should always prioritise 'staple' subjects ignores the importance of a broad, skills-based education and also risks squeezing out humanities, arts and creative subjects which are already getting marginalised. I'd love to see classics taught in more state schools. Happily, both grammars and the secondary modern that we're looking at for DS teach Latin.

Piggywaspushed · 14/10/2020 06:57

Do we think, potentially, this has something to do with the big academy chains and Michaela's links to Teach First??

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 14/10/2020 00:15

Just did a search for Latin/Classics on TES. Every single advert (only 4 for classics) was for a private/international school.

Clearly a desperate shortage needing government intervention.

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Hazelnutlatteplease · 14/10/2020 00:04

DDs state school (bulk standard comp) teaches Latin. Smallish town noone has ever heard off.

OhCrumbsWhereNow · 14/10/2020 00:01

Not CSG, or Harris or Michaela... but another London comp. Alongside Latin they also offer Classical Civilisation as one of the History options for GCSE.

They did Latin at her Primary as well - over 50% FSM and well over 50% EAL.

ItWasNotMeITellYou · 13/10/2020 23:34

@OhCrumbsWhereNow interesting, thanks. I didn’t realize the Micheala schools taught Classics or that there were so many Harris schools, mostly London area though...
Anyway, sorry, de-rail...

foxesandsquirrels · 13/10/2020 23:24

I doubt an influx of teachers due to a drying job market will help teacher retention. Going for teaching because there's nothing else is a pretty low bar. They'll just leave in droves when this is over or once they step into a classroom or have to teach Y8 science with an English degree

foxesandsquirrels · 13/10/2020 23:21

@Camdenish were not in one but almost all Harris academies, of which there are a lot, as well as the Michela copy and paste schools teach Latin and some form of classics.

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 13/10/2020 23:13

If anyone dares tell me that the government can’t afford to fund hand sanitiser for schools again, I’ll be pointing them at this thread.

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Camdenish · 13/10/2020 22:53

@OhCrumbsWhereNow

DD's state comprehensive teaches Latin.
Camden School for Girls? Or are there other state schools that teach it? There can’t be many.
Original poster
noblegiraffe · 13/10/2020 22:44

Good to see on the gov bursary page that they’re still plugging away with Troops to Teachers.

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Original poster
noblegiraffe · 13/10/2020 22:43

Sorry to hear that Zola, were you relying on there being a bursary for your subject?

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Piggywaspushed · 13/10/2020 22:41

It is crazy, especially along with their campaign to persuade talented ballerinas to suddenly work In cyber stuff...

ZolaGrey · 13/10/2020 22:40

Oh fuck, that's screwed me over well and truly.

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 13/10/2020 22:37

Yes, I get that some state schools teach Latin. But a government priority to train up more Latin teachers knowing they will go to the private schools and with Latin hardly being critically important to the economy - it’s just taking the piss. How can they justify keeping it while dropping primary maths?

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Piggywaspushed · 13/10/2020 22:34

To be fair noble we do Latin at my gaffe. Taught by a physics teacher. We haven't had any trainees.

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 13/10/2020 22:28

Will Covid really encourage people to want to be teachers?!

Apparently so. Teaching always does well in a recession.

“The overall number of postgraduate teacher training applicants up to mid-August 2020 was 16 per cent higher than at the same point in 2019, and 14 per cent higher than the 2017-19 average, according to a report published today by the National Foundation For Educational Research (NFER).”

www.tes.com/news/lockdown-teacher-training-applications-leap-third

Not sure about whether there will be enough placements though.

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