11+ What are the schools looking for?

Test scores are important however they do look at the girls overall performance, potential (probably more than performance on that actual day), suitability for the school and of course the reference from the head at current school. In regards to piano again it depends whether you are going to go for scholarships. DD was on grade 7 but didn't get it. This is not to say yours wouldn't but I suspect there was much more competition and better candidates for piano than say cello which she got. Piano is also very popular. Again it's worth a try and it could have been that my DD just underperformed or that it wasn't her day. There are many factors as I am sure you already know that might affect a child's performance on that particular day and it is in itself stressful for kids so young.

I would work on getting the math to a higher score. At the very least to the 120's. Don't know much about Queen's College although I did do a virtual open day with them this year which was impressive (but it's a marketing game, all the ones I have done so far have been impressive). I have also found that all the single sex schools say the same thing, focus on stem subjects, there being no boys to compete with, very heavy on entrepreneurship etc.

Have heard good things about both Francis Holland schools, especially re: sports and languages. Not sure about academics but expected point score is not as high as SPGS.

The best thing to do would be to go in for an actual tour of the school (limited now with covid but some are still offering them in small numbers and you can book online, the wait is long but it's a possibility) and both your daughter and self can get a feel of the school. After all, aside from academics etc she has to be and feel happy in the environment so as to meet her full potential. Good luck.

@Pumpkinnose my DD didn't know who MT was either, hence I specifically remember that question as she came out and the first thing she said was they asked her about it and she told them she didn't know and thought she'd failed the interview only based on that. She got in so it didn't affect her interview. And yes, the prep had given (and have again this time) us a list of schools and common/potential questions that may be asked. Most of which even I as an adult had to think twice on. They also had particular lessons where the focus was on interview preparation, so no doubt come coaching does happen.

To a previous poster, these places are unrecognisable from what they used to be and I think it’s a great travesty. I went to one of the super selective girls school, soared and thrived, ending up at Oxbridge. But I would never send my children there for what they are today. I just took my child round our local comprehensive and it reminded me of what my (highly selective private school) used to be like. My DS doesn’t even know who Margaret Thatcher is - I’d struggle to critique her myself! clearly these schools are catering for those pupils who have been coached to perfection by their prep schools.

I'd also agree about the impression some people have of St Paul's. I don't have a DD there but know a fair few who go there. They are all clever but several are very shy, none were head girl (came from State schools so often no such thing), couple played an instrument but grade 4ish, and none remotely sporty. I think its a bit of a myth you have to be amazing at everything- they know what they are looking for. All the girls I know are happy there.
My DD is at another selective girls school. There are girls who are v bright and amazing at music etc etc and have the scholarships but there are also lots of girls who are bright but not particularly sporty, not particularly musical etc etc. Just normal 12 year olds!

I agree with jeanne16 that brot16 may give a not exactly accurate impression that everyone at SPGS is totally and equally Uber skilled and crazy smart. This said brot16 is essentially right that at the competitive end of the spectrum of anything, be it music, sports, art or anything else for that matter eg drama or simply social skills , the level of the best 5-10 pc of students at SPGS is very high indeed. For this reason also, the more one can shine across as many facets of life, the more one feels at home and vice versa. One better know who they are and be cool with that at SPGS. Being unremarkable could be a tough place to be simply because a perfectly capable child may develop confidence Issues which is the opposite of the private school’s principal objective. This does not stop many people trying and sometimes succeeding in getting into a wrong school, often at high costs to all concerned. Hence the advice from others here is spot on. Other schools you mention are significantly more relaxed in terms of having a much broader range of people and attitudes and are perfectly fine in my opinion for someone who is yet to find themselves. The difference is the current popularity of a particular school and getting a high enough place on the pecking order of candidates to secure an offer. Godolphin is super popular right now, followed by the best GDST schools (SHHS, Putney), followed by FH and Channing. If you are super worried you can also consider Queens College.

@Brot64 well yeah Gymnasium was designed solely for tertiary education. I knew people at Realschule from primary who went on to very successful business ventures, I guess for me it was just that my parents were professors, so academia was all they knew. It was never even about money or career or status, just knowledge as a virtue. My biggest fear with private school here is the increasing social engineering in university applications. No point spending all that time and effort if it's all about levelling up the poor results of some comps at UCAS time. I often wonder if my DH would still have got in from Manchester Grammar now.

@Tootletum yes from my experience and even though people rave about the IB system, the German Abi is much more difficult. Interestingly the stress is not there maybe because everyone aims for the same thing, I mean we all wanted to do well that's why we were in gymnasium because we all wanted to go to uni, but it wasn't the make all or break all. I don't know, but I am more stressed now choosing for my kids than I was in Germany for myself. I just knew I had to perform well for my Abi and the rest would be okay and actually majority of us did very well. But those that didn't, didn't fail at life they successfully sought other avenues.

I know it's still the same now because I have a nephew in Hannover (I am from Hamburg) and he is not as stressed as my kids and neither are his parents. Weirdly I feel that in the German system despite the delay to enter Grundschule etc we were smarter and more all rounded and certainly happier. But this is the Uk or maybe just London system so adjust one must.

@Brot64 yeah I know, in Germany private school kids were rich thickos who needed a bit more teaching to get the right NC, or wanted the social connections. I only ever met 1 who went to Salem.
In Baden-Württemberg there was a test from Grundschule, but it seemed like it was just advisory. I never sat it.
I think part of my total laissez fair attitude comes from my view of the much lower standards that seem to be required by the UK syllabus at A level. I struggled a bit with partial differentiation in Yr 11 (ie pre 6th form) and showed my English maths teacher auntie. She said that was a level of maths they did in 1st and 2nd year maths degrees. When I swapped to the UK system in 6th form, I basically had nothing to learn (other than a better accent and boarding school weirdness), and took most of my A levels early. I'm clever, but no genius.

As said above, if you are at a prep school, listen to the advice of the school/ Head. They know your child and know what’s required for each school.

@Tootletum same actually, it was and still is a very interesting experience because in Germany at least the north you always have the option of Gymnasium, Real or Gesamt and that's measured by ability or interest and it's so automatic no entrance exams. Switching schools is so easy as well, a letter suffices . I cannot remember a time where I sat for entrance exams particularly as I was in a gymnasium from the get go so the most important exam was the Abitur which was stressful enough.

I also remember that we were never tutored. We had a scheme where the brightest would go to the closest university at 16 to try out subjects they were good at and also an apprenticeship scheme I did 3 weeks at Otto and 2 weeks at my father's company and then an evaluation assessment. That was it. It was also seen that "problematic " children went to private schools or diplomats to international schools, but everyone else went to the common gymnasium, Realschule etc. Huge difference in London.

@HighRopes, never implied the children are geniuses, and I don't think mine are. However I do think and believe that there's a different attitude towards academics and commitment required for it that is needed at St Paul's that is far greater than other selective schools. Also we were applying for sports and music scholarships and were dismissed for piano despite DD being in grade 7 so I can only assume there were better applicants at a higher grade or they interviewed better. Again I will never know, I can only speak about our experience.

Brot64 I also have a dd at SPGS, and I don’t recognise it from your description. She’s not G6-8 on an instrument, not sporty, not super competitive (more competitive against herself). She’s very able academically, but no genius. And she loves it there.

OP If you think your dd would enjoy a liberal, creative, highly academic environment then go for it. My dd wasn’t at a prep, so I don’t know how much reliance to place on the Head’s recommendation. We just took a punt, coming from a state primary, and it paid off.

@Brot64 yeha it's weird the sort of selective non selection! Of course I felt the pressure at gymnasium too, I wanted to do well and go to uni in the UK. Just glad I don't live in London now, although of course my friends do all this stuff with Channing etc. Maybe we're just not ambitious for them but I can't imagine any of it.

@Tootletum I am also German albeit from the north, and I went to my closest Gymnasium. No assessments needed although I did do a lot of out of school activities more for pleasure than anything. I only felt the pressure because my parents wanted me to go to a US university which I did and was happy to do.

When I moved to London and had kids I thought this was all madness but after missing a nursery place because my DD was not as attentive as they expected, here I am very much involved with what is now the norm with London schools.

Actually no I didn't exaggerate. I have gone through the process for St Paul's once and I am doing it again this year, we were actually hoping they would switch to assessing via ISEB but alas it will be CEM which is more difficult. I am not suggesting that every single girl that goes there excels (i couldn't possibly know this) in everything far from it, but I know that academics are seriously taken there and I know it's not an environment for a child just above average. The pressure to succeed even between the children is palpable.

My last one for example wouldn't be happy there and as the head told us with a 135+ CATs score and all the activities she does she may make it in but it's unlikely she will survive without a struggle. She has no care for competition and that's fine. My other two (older one already there) and DSS at St Paul's boys are very academic and it comes easy to them, they are confident and happy there and the head recommended St Paul's for the one moving on to secondary next year.

The reality is that it's an extremely competitive environment which requires a certain type of child who can thrive and benefit from such an environment and that's not all children. There are so many other good schools in London that cater to all abilities.

Tootletum the London selective private schools scene is a world unto itself and bears no relationship to the U.K. secondary education system as a whole. I accidentally stumbled across threads on here about it a few years ago when my DD was taking the eleven plus for state schools, which is a very different thing.

Do really listen to the advice from your prep school! They have years of experience in doing this so take advantage of that. They should know what type of child she is and where she will.blossom, so look at what they recommend and maybe one/two others that are similar type.

If she's "a little above average" - do you mean for tests on a national scale (so, say 110 on cats), or do you mean for those entering for selective schools? Again, your prep school should be able to give you this information.

Your daughter will be successful if she is in the right environment for her. Don't be blinded by big name schools if she isn't resilient enough to take the pressure. She should enjoy her education too! Find somewhere that suits her strengths, and she will flourish.

Wow this is blowing my mind. I went to state school and was always the top of the class. That was in South Germany, where all secondaries are selective, but hilariously, if you're from a white German middle class professional family, and are moving midyear, your dad writes a letter to the headmaster and you're accepted... I couldn't put my kids through this level of testing. They'll just have to be plumbers then!

Actually I believe Brot64 may be exaggerating slightly about how able the St Paul’s girls are. Having said that, a friend’s DD went to SPGS and from day 1 told her mother she felt stupid. She wasn’t of course but felt like it. She ended by with serious MH issues so be cautious of choosing a school that is too academic.

Even the GDST school vary considerably.

Where are you based - have you thought about the commute to school?

Even the GDST school vary considerably.

Where are you based - have you thought about the commute to school?

As mentioned above, the likes of St Paul's wouldn't really be suitable. A school like Channing sounds possible, however. It's a fairly local school to us and the girls going there are bright girls but not the top from our state primary (they go to CLSG or grammar etc). I would definitely think that your DD would have a great chance at Channing.

Standards have changed generally (at least in London not sure about the rest of the country) for entrance exams for most if not all selective schools. The process is stressful, competition is stiff, tutors are on high demand, I know people who have tutored since year 1 and some who have been preparing for 11+ for years (though we didn't opt for that but we were given past papers by our school and most schools have them on their websites now), every single child, at least the ones I know either plays an instrument if not more than one and takes part in sport, drama, extra language classes bla bla list is endless. Of course all of this doesn't determine future academic or any other success.

Hang on a sec, I have quite a few adult friends who went to St. Paul’s. They are bright, but not scarily so. Have standards changed? the women I know are not these Fabulous grade 8 musicians, sporty, head girl all rounders. One is academic, but crap at sport, very shy. Two are reasonably academic but now not self employed writers and scraping by. One is quite arty, but not at all intellectually challenging. Or maybe I just know all the misfits, LOL. Actually, this is a genuine question: since I also went to a great school, and wonder if I’d get in now. And in that fabled mumsnet style, I never even saw a past paper before sitting the test...