Indie Schools: Value Added Ranking

but try to decided if the environment will be. place that their chid is likely develop emotionally as well as achieve intellectually.
Sounds good but just as life is often stochastic so can be how a school engenders ‘value-added’.
My DB had a friend at his highly regarded boarding school who was unhappy and bullied. This was at a time when such schools had a ‘’robust’ environment. He found refuge at recreation times in a DT workshop due to the encouragement of one kind and inspiring teacher who came across him when he was upset That sparked off his long term passion and career. Long-term he has been very happy because of it and certainly not stunted emotionally despite an inauspicious start. All it takes sometimes is one good teacher at the right time or a couple of strong friendships. Not infrequently the catalyst for strong friendships is from shared experience of being misfits.

So value added may not be in line with parental vision including that of a happy DC. However it seems logical that the best odds for the ‘right’ stochastic event are in schools with a density of great teachers who are enthusiastic about their job, suited to a DC’s pace of learning and providing a broad curriculum.

Stilllookingfor Ah, I thought your point was it didn’t deliver added value academically. But is your point that it does so at a cost to personal development and long term happiness?

That wasn’t my experience. I enjoyed my time there, and would say it boosted my confidence and overall potential for happiness. Of those I’m still in touch with, I think all but one would say it was a positive thing for them.

As PPs say, I think it’s all about fit. I wouldn’t choose a school purely (or even mostly) for the results. If you’re looking at London independent schools, there a lots of schools with good results. I would choose it for the fit. And there are some dds for whom SPGS is an excellent fit - quirky individualists, in particular.

The trope about highly academic girls’ schools being high-pressure and full of self-harm / anorexia / mental health problems is widely believed. A parent said that to me about Tiffin Girls School only a few days ago. But, as far as I’m aware, there’s no clear evidence (just anecdata) of these problems being more prevalent in these types of schools, or any evidence of the positive or negative impact of schools on pupils over the long term.

@highropes no doubt SPGS delivers A levels, albeit after super careful cohort selection. But based on what I have seen, not sure it delivers long term value added to the person, even self confidence or other elements that add to overall happiness later on any more than any other place. I have seen Paulinas with long term issues product of the pressure they have been in, despite their very high intelligence. It is difficult to accept this may be counterproductive in the long term, so I can see why you don't like it. The point for the OP and for anyone is, be careful what you wish for when you choose a school solely on results.

Value added scores are very misleading. I taught a high ability class where about 80% were predicted the top gcse grade. Most of them achieved their predicted grade and my value added score for that class was quite low. The same year I had a low ability class and they were predicted a wide range of grades. They achieved a range of reasonably good grades and my value added score for them was much higher. Same school, same teacher, same resources, same curriculum. A brighter child would probably have been happier in the higher ability set despite the lower value added score. Value added doesn’t really work for selective schools as their grade predictions are higher. Very selective schools can be a bit frustrating though as some teachers can be a bit complacent with high ability children. They know that most of the children will do well and if they don’t then they know parents/tutors will support outside of school.

Surely a lot of the destinations reached are down to personal and family connections as well as schooling.

I went to a very privileged school in my country (not UK). Now 20 years later, very many have six figure salaries and global careers but most of them had the family connections, back ups, leg ups etc

Those of us who didn't, did struggle a lot more, I have got there but have had to work ridiculously hard for it and I have also been lucky and very determined, but I do know people that with the same background to me didn't make it to a standard successful career.

"Though I have massive reservations about the ability of parents to evaluate the "fit" between their child a school."
Part of the problem is that schools are slick marketing machines, they know what parents want to see and hear so parents find it near enough impossible to tell school A will suit their DC more than school B especially when combined with league table, a schools individual status in the world of independent schools, old alumni, the fact that your family have gone to X for five generations, or that your boss went to Y and was a complete dick head, Medieval building or not etc. Secondly parents seem to assume that X or Y will be there/happen, at boarding you're paying a substantial sum you'd think you'd find out before sending Freddie there if there's a golf course for you golfing nut son. Also many parents IMO place too much importance on things that ultimately are nice to have but are not as importance as "fit e.g. en suite bathroom etc. But to see the woods for the trees you really need to do at least two visits preferably more on a normal school day and talk to as many staff and pupils as possible but of course this is not always possible and I guess even less possible in the current situation.

Without a doubt a child who feels he/she has found their niche at the school and feels it suits them will achieve more academically and develop more emotionally than a child who feel like an alien form out of a space whose landed on some weird planet.

On this point, we absolutely agree. Though I have massive reservations about the ability of parents to evaluate the "fit" between their child a school. The best I could come up with for DD1 was to ask the students "Which activities and achievements does the school celebrate most at assemblies?" And "What are the queen bees best at?"

Some though provoking points @expat96. I personally don't think high income and soul killing but lucrative jobs mean that you "destination" has been reached, although no one can deny that earning sufficient income to put a roof over your head/food on the table and be able to on a fairly regular basis enjoy things we like in life is unlikely to be achieved on the current minimum. Neither do I think fame or becoming prime minster mean that you destination has been reached either I wouldtn wish either win my worst enemy.
I don't agree that for everyone that "judgments passed much before age 35 have much value" I know some very emotionally intelligent caring individuals in their early 20's who are able to form excellent and meaningful relationships with others who are very you and some pretty horrible 50 year olds. As far as I'm aware the generally consensus is that most people are not going to under go a massive personality change in their mid 30's but we do mellow. Also without a doubt if you're in a soul killing job then this is likely to impact oil the sort of person you are. But this will also apply at any age.
I agree Im not sure how much value added (in terms of academic achievement/improvement on predicated out comes at say yr 6) an independent school adds. As you say the top selective schools are often oversubscribed will have done exactly that carefully selected pupils who they believe will flourish and do well in their environment. Obviously the will make mistakes and as you say they will shed some along the way, on either the schools recommendation or because they are unhappy there and wish to leave. You are right in that those who remain are likely to be more resilient and socially adept, but maybe its more complicated than that maybe the ethos of the school suits them, they've found their niche in the school I don't think quality of teaching is playing much of a part in this. Over the years of working in the independent sector Ive seen children move out of and into the schools I've worked in some have moved to or from what appears on paper very similar school and have loved it others hated to and come/gone back. Without a doubt a child who feels he/she has found their niche at the school and feels it suits them will achieve more academically and develop more emotionally than a child who feel like an alien form out of a space whose landed on some weird planet. So maybe parents when looking at the independent sector shouldn't be asking about value added or results/ university destinations etc but try to decided if the environment will be. place that their chid is likely develop emotionally as well as achieve intellectually.

@happygardening it should be clear that I'm focusing on something other than academic accomplishments as I'm emphasizing a timeframe well after formal schooling finishes. Anyway, IME academic accomplishments are only weakly correlated with income. My observation is that career results depend far more on self-discipline, emotional intelligence, resilience and luck, than do academic results. But I've also noticed that luck tends to be positively correlated with resilience and discipline; the more times you try, the more chances you have to get lucky while the more prepared you are, the more you can take advantage if you do get lucky.

Right now the state mandates that we spend about 1/6 of our lives in formal education and an increasing number of people are spending up to 1/4 of their lives in formal education. But most of those years come before adulthood.

Focusing on our adult lives, I don't believe that judgments passed much before age 35 have much value. I've known plenty of people who reached their late 20s with all the outward manifestations of early success and end up divorced and working in soul-killing, albeit lucrative, jobs. Conversely, I've known plenty of people who struggled with relationships and various penal forms of training in their 20s who emerged in stable relationships after finding someone special, and who were able to do what they genuinely enjoyed. There's just too much noise in the transition between education and the bulk of our adult lives.

As for "value-added", the top academic schools generally admit children who had the discipline to learn what they were told to learn. They then shed some of the less resilient ones along the way. Others leave these relatively high-pressured environments because they are less socially adaptable and, therefore, less happy. It should not be surprising that the survivors of this process are more disciplined, more resilient, and more socially adept than the average. How can you attribute how much of that is due to a school's teaching as opposed to the selection and survivorship biases?

Maybe your right and maybe Im a bit anti jargon (as we have so much of it in my occupation). But I do slightly struggle with the idea that the term "destination reached" is being used to describe the desired outcomes for person 10 years after you left school as well rounded happy (most of the time) individual who has a high level of emotional intelligence, you're resilient, capable of forming loving relationships, get on with peers colleagues etc. For a start "value added" is not about this it's about exam results and academic improvement and secondly I would hope that you would see these qualities in a person well before 10 years after you left school

I disagree @expat96. My assumption of what I think is meant by "destination" is based on my knowledge of the poster and I don't think he is referring to happy souls sitting on a beach weaving baskets.

peterneras used the word "destination". I interpreted this as encompassing the totality of quality of life, including likely future prospects for happiness. And I continue to agree that the end of secondary is far too early to evaluate that.

To those of you who ass u me that a destination must equate to a career, and could not possibly include happiness, etc.: I think your assumption says more about you than me.

there are no metrics for this

Well, quite. I'm puzzling over exactly how this could work for pupils awarded academic scholarships to intensely academically selective independent senior schools. What possible academic added value should there be? One hopes only that the pupil fulfils the potential they had on joining the school - and that they have been enabled to develop a rounded, empathetic, resilient character.

Short answer, no there are no metrics for this

"The only real yardstick measuring the true value added of any school - indie or otherwise - is the destination reached 10 years (or more) after the individual had left the school."
I agree with peteneras that you need to look beyond the end of secondary to evaluate a result, but believe that you should probably go 10 years beyond the end of their formal education, not just 10 years beyond the end of secondary."
What a truly unpleasant way of judging the value added of your chosen school in either sector. Surely happiness, resilience, emotional intelligence, the ability to form caring loving relationships, get on with your peers and colleagues etc although difficult to quantify are the most important attributes and marker of success. Obviously schools don't do this on their own but they play apart. Who sits and measure the destination reached 10 year after leaving school?

stilllookingfor I agree with PPs, I don’t measure a school on the glitteriness of the careers of its alumnae after ten years. Zodlebud got it exactly right, what I look for is helping pupils to develop the self-knowledge to know what will fulfill them, and the confidence and ability to make that happen. IME, SPGS does that (though I’m sure you’ll find those who disagree). I also agree that the OP really doesn’t care about Paulinas in top jobs...

I’m not sure that value add can be based on what someone ends up doing 10 years after graduating. Success means different things to different people - it’s not about how many top flying lawyers, accountants, consultants, doctors, academics, entrepreneurs or influencers they create. It’s about whether people reach where they want to get to.

What about that person who just wants to work for a charity? Maybe working on a conservation project somewhere abroad? Many would see that as a “doss” job for the very privileged, but for that person it’s the peak of their career. How do you measure that? Or the person who “just” wants to be a midwife?

All schools should give students all the skills they need to achieve their ambition, be that confidence, leadership or team building skills, as well as academics.

Our independent DOES quote a value added measure, with students achieving on average, one to two GCSE grades higher than would be expected when they entered the school. It doesn’t appear on any kind of collated website though. I am guessing the OP is looking for a school that helps her child reach their potential by researching schools like this, and isn’t particularly interested in how many Paulinas go onto top jobs.

Stilllooking, I am not a Paulina.

You don't send a child to an independent school just so that in ten years you can see if they have done better than they would have done at a state school. Or have achieved more than state school children have done!

It's about personal development, small classes, being seen as an individual, maybe for single sex education, sport, music, creative arts... Really impossible to measure!

DS's independent gives a Progress 8 score on their website but I don't think it makes it on to any web league.

@highropes and @mimbleandlittlemy if you are Paulinas maybe you can comment on your cohort and tell what people went on to do ten years after graduating? (@peteneras made a really good comment at looking beyond university destinations)

Stilllookingfor Is Kate Bingham (leading the UK effort for a coronavirus vaccine) recent enough?
www.ft.com/content/f63f9e25-a291-4871-9d4b-2fcf93c4969e

It’s more that Paulinas with any sense don’t mention their school, unless asked directly.

On value add, the minority that enter Y7 from state primaries come in with perfect or nearly perfect SAT scores, so it would be very hard to measure progress in any sensible way.

I agree with peteneras that you need to look beyond the end of secondary to evaluate a result, but believe that you should probably go 10 years beyond the end of their formal education, not just 10 years beyond the end of secondary.

However, I think that even a complete reckoning on that basis wouldn't give you value added because the effect of the secondary schools' selection process, both in admissions and survival, is too great.

Yes I will give you there are some indeed in the arts and showbiz and politics. But do you have to go back to the 1930s for some examples?

Stilllookingfor - no you never see anything of St Paul’s Girls: Rosalind Franklin, Harriet Harman, Shirley Williams, Jennifer Saunders, Rachel Weiz...