Should DS take A Level maths?

OP he is old enough to understand that doing Physics A level would require some fundamental knowledge of Maths. So it is like pushing water upwards. He is asking for the impossible and wound venture to say deep inside half knows it. Have you challenged him on this? The message is, no point wishing for something that can't happen. I would also ask him to go through the list again and if he really wants to study Geography at uni, look for some A levels that may complement that. Easy to rule out subjects, a lot more difficult to rule them in. Herein lies the challenge, time to get real me says.

Perhaps it is a maturity issue too. Some students don't do so well at GCSE because they only work hard at things they like or where they like the teacher. Very Clever students can get really good grades at GCSE even with little work, but the more average student might need to do some work to get good grades. To be honest though, a 4 really is a pretty low level in any subject for someone want ing to do A Levels, so I'd expect that even with little or no work, they would get the grade and pass. Anything which isn't a very basic pass (4) woukd be a red flag for me and lots of schools and colleges require all subjects to have been passed....but that's not a particularly high bar for most A Level students who are hoping to get decent grades.

I think there is a big difference between a student who is a bit lazy and scrapes a clutch of 6s with an odd 7 when they really should have got 8s, and the student who ends up with mostly 4s and 5s with a couple of 3s thrown in. The latter doesn't really seem to be A Level material. Attitude is important too. I know some 16 years can be very immature and develop during 6th Form, but the lazy student doing something like Maths, with a disappointing starting grade (very few places would let you start with less than a 7 in maths and actually be a bit concerned about the person with a 7 who lacked any really natural feel in maths, but literally scraped the 7) isn't really looking at good outcomes. Just being realistic.

Most schools and colleges will take someone who meets the school/college entry requirements for A Level study and require 6 minimum for most subjects but require 7 in maths (or 8 in some schools) for doing maths or physics. Some will require this for other sciences too. Selective schools would want 7s in the subjects being studied as a minimum. For new subjects like psychology or possibly economics of politics (often not offered at GCSE) they will want 6s/7s in the GCSEs closely related in terms of skills.

In my experience, weaker A Level students (with a profile of 6s and 7s) get better A Levels by doing humanities than languages, sciences or maths. I think humanities are more accessible to a range of students. The more able understand and write onan deeper level but the less able can still access the material and understand and prod uensolidnif not great answers and enjoy it. Some subjects like maths are totally miserable if you're really not up to it. With Maths, the advice of the maths teacher is really important. Some students will scrape a 7 or even an 8 and the teacher will be able to say that maths just isn't their thing, or that they really have got some capacity for higher level study of it. What is on paper isn't the full story, especially when boundaries can be extremely low.

Seek the advice of the teachers who know your son. They should be able to advise - ask for real honesty!

A level maths is hard! I know several year 12’s with a 9 at GCSE who are finding it a challenge.

I agree with those wondering what it is he doesn't like about maths. If his teacher could see he had the potential to handle further maths, and he has some interest in computing and in physics, that all points to someone who could find maths enjoyable given the right circumstances.

So, can you identify more specifically whether he finds certain things boring, or doesn't like following a set format to work through a question, or doesn't like the logical steps or leaps with which certain topics have been presented - but might find it makes more sense with a different approach? I'm thinking that you might be able to ascertain that he has gaps to fill and then will be happier; or that the more advanced maths courses will actually suit him better; or some other reason. If maths is truly definitely out then he will be limited by this later on I think.

I don't know much about army careers but could imagine him being encouraged to do more maths in relevant areas as part of technical training once he joins. I know my daughter had a little look at army and navy recruitment (does CCF at school) and could see that they would want her to go down some sort of tech line (with strong maths and science GCSEs) when actually she's deciding to pursue humanities.

@Wombatchocolate it may depend on whether the 4 was because he could not do the work or because he hates the teacher/could not be bothered. If a DC gets a 4/5 despite working hard and trying to do well, that is different. When I was at school there were bright kids (mostly boys) who decided not to engage and I am sure it was frustrating for their parents!

To be honest, if he's going to fail to get a 4 at Economics, are A Levels really the right thing? Many of the skills in geography would be similar and if a child has the ability to do essay-based A Levels, they should be able to get passes (4s are not a particularly high standard to reach) in any of the humanities. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but perhaps an alternative route might be better or worth considering?

Econ is fine at A Level without maths, but you need maths A level, not Econ to do it as a degree. Important to know that when choosing.

@WombatChocolate this is the 2017 data, where of course they still had AS levels, but it shows that 68% of the candidates with an A got A-C and 43% of the candidates with a B got A-C. Strangely, in both sets of data, people with Cs did better than those with Bs - maybe because some of the Bs were from hard workers who were working at the limit of their ability and there were more lazy ones "yet to peak" in the Cs!

It sounded to me like OP's DS was on an upward trajectory in maths, but as I said upthread, I would recommend doing past papers and if he was struggling to get 6+ would probably advise against Maths.

He shouldn't do maths unless he really likes it, I teach physics and although most do maths not all do. However the ones that don't do maths have commented that they wish they did. Get him to speak to the schools careers advisor to look at his options properly. It may mean going to another school or college

@hellsbells99 no need to buy a book, DS1 has been taking DS2 through Further Maths GCSE to keep his brain functioning using this free site corbettmaths.com/more/further-maths/

Does he like any part of maths? A level is different from GCSE. Is he good at algebra? Try getting him to do extra maths over the next couple of months - like the level 3 algebra qualification (I mean Buy the book and study but not take exam) or the additional maths. Then see how he feels about it. To even consider A level at this stage, he does need to keep studying anyway - if he hasn’t done any maths for a few months by September it will be so much harder imo

I think there has been a change from those figures. I’ve seen more up to date figures on threads about Maths outcomes, but can’t remember where.
I think the outcomes based on the lower GCSE grades are significantly worse. 2010 is a long time ago on specification and grading terms.

I am just dredging my memory but I think a B/6 at GCSE is most likely to result in an E/U at A level. Can someone else confirm if I’m remembering correctly? If I remember correctly, vast numbers were dropping out after AS when it still existed. Without that mid-point reality check, schools are more careful about who they let on on in the first place.

It’s why schools set higher requirements for maths a level.

Of course not all students at A level can be top grade students. However starting from a point where an E I’d most likely isn’t great and sets you up for 2 years of struggle.

It sounds like it’s not possible in your school but, for what it’s worth, my DS has just finished year 12 studying geography, DT and physics - no maths. He has managed very well with physics without the maths, and has really enjoyed the year. I don’t think he would have enjoyed maths A-level at all, even though he did very well at GCSE. He had to get 7 or above at GCSE maths to take A-level physics though.

..... and unless there has been a significant change in correlation, would you say that 50% of students with an A getting B-A at A level and 75% getting C-A was a poor outcome?

Hmmm, this report is a bit old (2010 data) www.cambridgeassessment.org.uk/Images/153531-progression-from-gcse-to-as-and-a-level-2010-.pdf

but shows the following correlation:
GCSE A - 95.8% A-C at A level
GCSE A - 72.7% A*-C at A level
GCSE B - 41.5% A*-C at A level
GCSE C - 35.1% A*-C at A level

So, at least in 2010, 35% of people with a C at GCSE got a C or better at A level.

Attaching the infographic for maths

Maths A Level without 8/9 is very very hard. With a 7, outcomes at A level are not great. If you’re not that good at it and don’t like it, it really isn’t a recipe for success.

The thing is, although Maths is needed for lots of things, wanting to do those doesn’t magically make Maths a genuine option.

Every year, people do courses which required maths. They find the one course that might let them on without it (computing or economics etc) and then massively struggle.

So when schools say A level maths is needed for another A level, or for a uni course, take it seriously.

He needs to rethink and look for things which don’t need maths.

A level Choices I think are hard for students who get 6/7 grades. These grades are good enough for some Alevels but some certainly need higher than a 6. Lots of places specify minimum 7 in anything you want to do at A level, plus 8 for maths. These are specific subject requirements beyond the general school/college entry requirement.

Places might be a bit more flexible this year but it won’t actually mean maths becomes more doable or likely outcomes improved.

... but if his teacher thought he should consider double maths it sounds like he was just not thriving in the classroom and may find himself in the A level class. That is why I suggested lots of past papers to build confidence. Having a Maths grad as a mum won't hurt either .

Hi there, teacher here with experience working in three different sixth forms for over 12 years... our maths departments were very reluctant to take anyone without an A/A*/9/8 (at a push) for A Level Maths. The course is incredibly difficult.

He sounds like he is very clued up with the type of subjects he wants to study. What is attracting him to the A Level geography course? Does he enjoy the subject at school? Like the teacher? Like the course content at A Level?

I think he has to take what he ultimately enjoys and will get a good grade in. It would worry me that he has a slightly erratic working pattern. I've seen so many students try and cram at the end for A Levels and this almost never works. Especially now the the terminal A Level, there is not shock of AS exam results.

He might be interested in studying Computer Science at university Unis want maths and FM but can't specify FM because not all colleges offer it so it puts candidates with just maths at a disadvantage when applying. Ds is doing Computer Science A level but universities don't care about it for a degree in it, they want the maths and further maths.

If he doesn't like maths then surely physics is a bad idea. Ds is also doing physics and agrees with Monkey they overlap.

What other sixths forms and colleges are near you and what other courses are on offer at those? Just weigh up all options.

..... and if he is reluctant to do past papers I find -bribes- rewards very effective, whether it is a tub of Ben and Jerry's for each paper he does or financial incentive!

DS did Maths and Physics. The Maths really helped with the Physics.

A lot of schools like you to start 4 subjects and drop one by Christmas. Could he start Maths, Physics, Geography and the IT thing and see how it goes in the first term? You could get him to do maths past papers between now and September to consolidate his GCSE knowledge. If he is doing well in Physics and wants to drop maths at Christmas they may be more flexible then (although I would not recommend Physics without Maths either).

DS1 did maths and physics and for him there was a significant overlap, maybe it depends on the board.