If you’re aiming for A/A* in maths Alevel is doing it in a year not a good idea?

What do you class as a maths based subject or a physical science?

Definitely physics, maths, computer science. Engineering is very mathematical too but less so than the other three so possibly more forgiving. If he wants to do Chemistry or biology then FM won't be at all necessary - even at a very top university. It might look good but he should only bother if he thinks he'll enjoy the course and work hard enough to get top grades.

I guess it depends why he finds maths boring. I've done tutoring of high school students before and met some who were simply bored because it was too easy. Others just prefer more practical approaches and don't like the more abstract reasoning involved in pure maths - especially students who went on to do Engineering.

And while FM definitely is useful, he should be able to get an offer at a good uni with chemistry instead.
Look at the requirements on the uni web pages. It's easy to find what they're all actually asking for.

If he is really good at chemistry (and also maths and physics) he may not find A level as bloody hard as other people (DH and I are chemists)

Cross post...
DD was in the second maths set at a grammar but did gcse FM and aced it... some kids get the bit between their teeth and do better than predicted in the end!
But that did mean she looked at a good spread of unis
So, my info is a few years old but broadly the ones DD looked at - all for EEE except Cambridge- were in rough order (no London ones because London...)
Manchester, Southampton, Bristol
Sheffield
Nottingham, Birmingham, Surrey, Newcastle
Loughborough

And... sorry, keep thinking of things ... bear in mind 'engineering' covers a broad range of fields. My DD is a 3rd year doing general engineering at Cambridge so has had a bit of everything except chemical. That obviously usually requires chemistry. Chemistry might also be helpful (even if not required ) for materials engineering. OTOH, some of the other branches are more 'hard maths' heavy - I think some of electronics, thermofluids (aero) , some of the 'info' engineering . Some areas coding is relevant (not requiring formal CS qualification) ... doing 3 subjects and having time to spend doing a bit of coding or practical skills may also make life a bit easier at uni. (An EPQ doing something relevant may be an idea alongside 3 A levels - not a requirement, unlikely to get grade reduction at most places, just an extra possibility)

And yes, the grades matter - the 'second tier' may be asking for an A* in maths or physics plus 2 As, or at least 3 As.

You've said he doesn't want to do 4 - if it's possible it might be wise to start 4 and plan to drop one.

For engineering, maths and physics are the crucial subjects.

FM is 'desirable' or 'highly' desirable at the top ones - for the reasons discussed in terms of it being harder if you don't have it if you have to learn the content more quickly when you arrive at uni rather than being taught. In terms of getting an offer it's probably only the very top ones where you're unlikely to get an offer without it if you've got good predicted grades and the third is eg chemistry or CS.

These threads tend to end up discussing oxbridge and imperial but we are fortunate in the U.K. to have many unis offering good solid engineering degrees with a range of entry requirements. If your DS is expecting an 8 rather than a 9 for maths at GCSE then the probability is that he'll be looking more in this range - Southampton, other redbricks, Loughborough for instance.

What do you class as a maths based subject or a physical science?confused

Dd was looking at physics, or possibly engineering in some form. 6th form staff were emphatic about the importance of doing FM A level for those kinds of degrees.

Her friend who wants to study chemistry at degree level was told that single maths was fine for that.

We were told that unis can’t specify FM because not all schools offer it. But the subtext was very much, yes, you absolutely should do FM if you want to do a physical science at a high-ranking university.

sorry that should read A A

@MontysOarlock

I have taught a STEM subject at Cambridge (while I was doing a postdoc I'm not and never was a full proffesor). STEP is a better predictor of success because it's much harder than A-levels. Every student who does well at STEP finds A-level maths and further maths a walk in the park. On a maths course at Cambridge or Oxford almost all students will have AA at maths and further maths (it's not unusual for a student to have only an A grade in one other subject but not maths) so of course it can't be used to predict success.

Doing further maths certainly won't guarantee you do well in STEP (and the actual material you'll need will only be A-level syllabus) but it will ensure you have better fluency with the basics and having done twice as much maths will undoubtably be an advantage for both STEP and MAT/PAT papers. Look at the stats - students who have taken further maths perform better at STEP. If you're even considering a STEM top university you should absolutely take further maths without question - you can certainly recover from not taking it but why put yourself at a disadvantage. The question is really only relevant for students who are more boarderline.

@WhyCantIThinkOfAGoodOne

But even Cambridge states "STEP is a far better predictor of success in the Mathematical Tripos than A-levels." This isn't just about A levels and the grades this is about admissions tests too. That is why I suggested looking at the uni pages for the course to see what is required. I advised researching.

Lots of universities will only ask for single maths but 95% of the successful candidates will have two maths A-levels so you'll put yourself at a massive disadvantage if you don't take it

So why don't unis then just state FM as a requirement then for STEM if your school offers it? Why only state maths? It is this kind of fucking around that puts first generation children at a massive disadvantage.

@MontysOarlock

It's not enough just to look at what is required by universities. In terms of STEM subjects a university might not require FM but for many it will be very much expected. Lots of universities will only ask for single maths but 95% of the successful candidates will have two maths A-levels so you'll put yourself at a massive disadvantage if you don't take it. Not only in getting an offer in the first place but also when you turn up at the university.

If you're thinking about Oxbridge, imperial, UCL, Warwick, Edinburgh, Durham. for a maths based subject you would certainly want to be taking further maths whether or not it is specifically required.

If you're looking at less competitive universities you should be OK with single maths (although of course further maths if you're capable of it would be a massive plus). If you don't have at least a good 8 in GCSE I wouldn't advise taking further maths even if your school allows it.

@Hanfulofdust err where on earth did I say don't do the double maths? I didn't.

All I said, which is correct, is you do not need 4 A levels. That is a fact. Some of the students my son is with are doing maths, further maths and physics. No 4th subject. The vast majority of children doing 4 A level subjects at my son's outstanding sixth form are doing further maths.

I asked what other subjects is the Op's child looking to do and that if Fm is a struggle then you can usually drop it rather than get a low grade so you can concentrate on getting a maths grade up.

I also suggested that they look at what uni courses are asking for. Obviously if that says maths and FM then he needs to do maths and FM. Some maths courses say with Fm you are likely to get a 1 grade reduction offer so AAA rather than A* AA.

As someone who clearly deals with many sixth formers as you do in whatever capacity that may be, you will know that some children know exactly what they want to do at Uni and like my own son visited the Russel Group site to reverse engineer his GCSE options in year 8. Some don't have a clue. Some want to do a particular degree but then struggle with the A level content. Not every child ends up at Oxbridge or an RG uni. Sometimes you have to lower or change your expectations.

That's the way it worked when I did A-level Maths and FM, although we did do the exams at the same time.
I think we'd done the single maths in my group by mid February. If you're doing further maths the single is quite simple. There were 3 of us (out of a group of 6) that would have expected to get full marks barring occasional slips, at that point, and the others would have expected to be well into the A category (no A* then).

However if he's only doing single maths, then I would say he'd be better to take his time and do it over 2 years. For us, the sooner we completed the single maths, the more time we had to spend on FM, which was a bit harder, plus obviously we had not quite twice the lessons (I think we had 14 lessons for double maths, or it might have been 13, as opposed to 8 for single maths/other A-levels)

@MontysOarlock No what you're saying is complete rubbish. I help students with Oxbridge (and other top uni) applications in STEM subjects and it would be very unimpressive to come from a school which offers double maths and not take it. It will put you at a massive disadvantage when you take the admissions exams and go to interviews since everyone else will have done twice as much maths (which for all STEM subjects is at least half of the exam/interview). If you come from the type of school which doesn't even offer further maths the interviewer may take this into account and allow for lower scores. So while further maths isn't specifically required it's certainly expected.

You would also find yourself behind when you get to a top uni because 90% of students will have taken further Maths and universities hold your hand much less than schools so you'll be expected to catch up very quickly.

I wouldn't advise a student to take further maths though unless they got at least an 8 in their GCSE (unless they under performed for some reason). It's unlikely you'd be looking at going to a top uni in a STEM subject with a 7 or lower ability in Maths (unless there was some specific reason for the low score and it didn't reflect your actual ability).

If you're not looking at top universities single maths will be enough although further maths still very useful.

You don't need 4 A levels for any university subject even for medicine or Oxbridge. A lot of 4th subject A levels are Further Maths as you may as well ace out 3 A levels in 3 different subjects rather than drop some grades juggling 4 unrelated subjects. Maths and further maths go hand in hand.

Ds1 knows some students in his class will drop the FM element as they go into year 13 and just do maths A level and 2 other subjects. But the minimum grade to do maths in the first place was a 6 at GCSE and a 7 for FM. Ds got a 9, as he did in his other A level subjects.

What course does your Ds think he might want to do at uni and what other subjects is he looking at for A level? What grades does he need and do those courses specify the subject? So for computer science it says maths and futher maths.