GCSE and A-level guidance has been issued

Ah - I am getting myself so confused over this!

Dd gets anything between a 4-6 for most of her subjects. Her MLOs are all currently 4/5 but she has had 6s in English and sociology in the past (but not consistently). Mocks were a disaster (she did manage to get a 6 for English lit), but they were very tough e.g. Some of her friends were anticipating 7s in maths and got 4s and 3s.

During parents evening we were told by her science, sociology and English teachers she could get 6/7s - but now she won't have a chance to prove that.

I have no idea what to expect!

Also - if she doesn't get the grades she needs (6s in English and sociology) for her chosen 6th form - can the retakes in autumn/summer be used to address this or are they for people who have actually failed? Would she be able to defer or reapply to 6th forms if she retook and got better grades?

I am getting increasingly worried the more I read. DS goes to a large state comprehensive with a small 6th form. Results are generally average to good with the odd splashes of brilliance. However last year’s A level results were terrible - the cohort as a whole just weren’t great. This year DS’s cohort were expected to do much better - great GCSE’s behind them, good predicted grades and some fantastic offers from top universities.
My concern is how much weighting the standardisation model will put on last years results. Will his year be denied the chances they have worked so hard for because of pupil performance the year before? Or have I misunderstood?

Is anyone else worried that schools will rank students according to who needs what grades for university entrance?

You shouldn’t be, it’s not one of the pieces of evidence in the Ofqual guidance for determining rankings and besides with uni offers, all bets are off right now. Unis have been told to be flexible, they’ll have lost their international students and they will really need bums on seats. Some already converted offers to unconditional.

I also hope Ofqual standardise things between boys/girls

No. Ofqual have said they will not change teachers’ rankings so if they moderated up to give boys a better grade, this would also affect girls.

Is anyone else worried that schools will rank students according to who needs what grades for university entrance?

I really hope that teachers who are compiling grades and ranking students don't know what uni offers the students are holding?
(Although in reality, they will likely already know which students have Oxbridge offers etc.)

I also hope Ofqual standardise things between boys/girls, in line with previous years. Having seen many boys go through senior schools I would observe that the girls are more likely to work steadily and revise better for mocks etc, and many more boys do more of a minimum, but put in a final push for A levels.

Please trust that the teachers will be doing their best. They'll probably be agonising over the ranking, because it isn't easy, but they will try and be as fair as they can.

In a way, it's hardest with the largest cohorts, because very little may separate 15 kids. They'll be using all the information they have - mocks, progress since then, etc. When it gets to the stage of coin-tossing between pupil A and pupil B, I suspect mocks may be the decider, just because that's the most objective thing, but that doesn't mean that pupil C (who did worse in the mocks but has made masses of progress since) won't stay above them both.

If your child is one that is bumped down (or up) a grade, it's only going to be one grade. Schools' should be able to say with reasonable confidence whether each student is 7, 6/7, 6, 5/6, etc.
Everyone is going to know that this cohort's results may be a little more random than usual. Colleges will probably bear this in mind when admitting people to A-level courses, and might waive particular requirements that they might normally insist on.

@noble Fair enough, minus the coin tossing.

There isn’t a formula being applied to ranking, it’s teacher assessment. Teachers have been told to use what evidence is available to them in the form of classwork, homework, mock and test data in order to decide these grades and rankings.

It is unlikely that two pupils will be exactly the same on all measures. In that scenario, I can’t imagine a teacher using set to argue a case because teachers know that sets are not especially meaningful.

If it was the case that teachers genuinely couldn’t decide between two pupils in terms of ordering, I’d suggest tossing a coin. It would be as fair as anything else.

Based on what you’ve said it’s clear sets do come into play. What if they haven’t outperformed them? that’s easy to rank, what if they are both exactly the same, this is more the scenario that’s concerning us. Who gets ranked down? Will it not be the person in the lower set?

@noblegiraffe You’re always extremely helpful on these threads. I am mindful of you feeling badgered because no one really knows the exact detail of the formula applied, and if you do know, you can’t say. In the end, we’re all just going to have to wait till August, but it’s help having someone in the know to ask questions or just for clarification.

The teachers will know the reason for the setting and will rank according to evidence of attainment, surely?

How else can they rank students

By the masses of data that we hold on them. I teach a setted subject. We know that there’s overlap between the sets in terms of ability. If there is someone in set 3 who has outperformed someone in set 1 in mocks and tests, then they will be ranked higher than them if they are predicted the same grade.

@titchy but what if the dc in the lower rank is also a secure grade 7? Who gets ranked down that’s more my question? My comment about grades dipping was actually something that had happened in past so I’m not talking about a student who is up and down all over the place sorry if I’ve given that impression.. I’m talking about someone who is a top grade student and has been consistent for the last 2yrs but in lower sets because of SEN in order that he access the curriculum effectively.

@Noble Yes I’m assuming sets will come into play here. How else can they rank students?

This ranking now seems like he will be penalised for that because no matter what formula they are using, by its very nature it’s a ranking system that benefits those in the top part of the ranking

But that's fair surely - if someone is a very secure grade 7, they should be awarded a 7, whereas if someone is a 6, could get a 7 on a good day and the teacher puts them at a 7 with a low rank, if the schools results are moderates down, it should be the insecurely graded ones that move down.

Don't forget being the bottom ranked in a grade band would only mean they're moved down if the whole cohort is moderated. If the exam board is happy that the assessments look secure no one will be moderated down.

Effectively it's the same process as grade boundaries which move each year. The kid who gets 56% which was enough for a grade 6 last year, might well find the grade boundary changes to 57% the following year so they just miss out.

MrsGellar you are assuming that setting will be taken into account when deciding ranks, yet this is not listed as one of the pieces of evidence to consider.

Teachers will not automatically rank a set 2 grade 7 below a set 1 grade 7.

@BellaVida you’re not the only confused by the ranking and despite the some explanations on here they sound like the they’re saying exactly what our fears are, nothing different.

I have a dc in lower sets (second to the last infact) with SEN including adhd who works at a very high level so he regularly gets top grades when his concentration and meds are all working well. Sometimes if he’s not feeling so well his grades can dip. He’s been working really well all of yr 11 determined to stay on focus and has been predicted high grades mostly 7s and 8s. He’s always remained in his set because they can give him more attention and work at a more manageable speed.

Whenever he has complained before that wants to move sets I’ve always told him not to worry about his set as this won’t hold him back From getting top grades and he will get more input in class etc. This ranking now seems like he will be penalised for that because no matter what formula they are using, by its very nature it’s a ranking system that benefits those in the top part of the ranking with the same grades!

I’ve told DS if he is disappointed with any grades, he can re-sit but much better to direct that effort into his A levels and demonstrate what he can do then.

She’s had a week off, will have next week off too then crack open the books.

No she really needs them. We’ve looked at what little data we have and it doesn’t look good.Worst case scenario is that she wouldn’t get on the A level courses.She is being sensible by not just sticking her head in the sand and hoping for the best, trying to make some sort of a plan but that doesn’t help with the worry.

Sorry, was assuming school sixth form - if it's a completely stand alone sixth form centre (not years 12 and 13 of a school), then that is different.

You are incredibly over invested! Calm down, do nothing for 2 weeks and then come back and see how she feels. Does she need the grades or just want them?

The appeals are only about the application of the process and currently under consultation. I'd imagine appeals to be allowed at a centre level but not at candidate level. Candidates will be expected to resit.

Sorry crossed posted.

There is the needed to get 8 subjects issue and a 6 or 7 in a couple of supporting subjects. She has also said she wants a good Eng GCSE as it will be her only English qualification. Eng is a hard subject to study alone but originally should have been looking at an 8 so within her capabilities. You never know she may get an ok grade as recently submitted some good pieces before school ended I think.Mocks she did do were shocking so had a lot to prove. 2of the actual Alevel subjects will be fine so not worried about them, it’s just the extra supporting subjects and number of subjects.

I’m aware we do sound a bit over invested but let’s face it none of us have much else to do other than worry.

Appeals process will be interesting though. It’s clear from threads on here schools understandably have handled things differently and some have used later/ more assessments. Surely it’s going to be a nightmare with hoards of parents saying that school did it that way- process not fair.

Frankly in our situation I think it will be less stressful and easier to ‘just’ sit the damn exams presuming we pick the right ones.

Her situation is the same because she will be given the grades her teachers expected her to get in the summer. Teachers predictions are within one grade in 95% of cases. There are very few outliers who absolutely smash exams from doing nothing all year.

Why do you think she will need to resit any of them? From what you have written she is intelligent and going after an academic sixth form place. Sixth forms have been told to be lenient... If she has an offer she should now get in based on government guidelines. Does she really need to resit any of them?

State schools are explicitly forbidden by the Admissions Code to interview applicants

@MarchingFrogs we went to a couple of these meetings-which-aren't-interviews for desirable, oversubscribed sixth forms. In both cases we were told they weren't interviews, but they still felt like interviews, and asked the sort if questions you might expect at an interview .... "Why do you want to come to this school?" ... "Why is your predicted grade for [subject unrelated to entry requirement] lower than the rest?" ... and made statements along the lines of "Your application is impressive ... we would very much like you to come here and will be making you a conditional offer". And that was after having to fill in lengthy and potentially intimidating application forms that asked for way more information than is needed for entry, e.g. hobbies and interests, plans for the future, examples of leadership etc. So they are only "not an interview" in name only. Perhaps 'subtle filtration meetings' would be a better term? But most parents and students call them interviews.

No not an Indie, massive 6th form. I say interview, can’t remember the correct way they referenced it thought it was described as an interview but could be wrong. It was more a form filling in and discussion/ reminder re what was needed for said courses. Questions, picking additional extra curricular etc.

Either way they were lovely and she just needs entry requirements for her courses.

I know we need to stop worrying but can’t. I have to reassure dd who is stuck inside each and every day with little else to do but worry. Working towards resists and trying to figure out which to do and how means you never really leave it and shut it off. Obviously I do the “all will be fine” thing with her but she vocalises what I’m thinking but not voicing iykwim. She really needs to move on and get on these A level courses for a host of reasons. There is a big chance that might not happen.

Don’t see that her situation is the same as it would have been if she’d sat them.She isn’t sitting them inMay/ June. She has to second guess which to take instead, will need to study alone without the extra support, classes and materials she would have had from her school in the run up. During the summer holidays no teachers will be around and then she starts a new school to do Alevels in diff subjects alongside her retakes she’ll be doing with zero contact from previous teachers in Nov. Not a small undertaking.All this after a crap couple of years she has worked hard to overcome and was making progress in.