Shouldnt equal education be available to everyone?

Our local high performing grammar, is the least funded school in the county...

the state education system is desperately underfunded

I am not saying you are wrong but more funding isn't necessarily going to fix everything. There are huge disparities in funding per pupil within state schools. However, a study a few years ago found that there was no link between the level of funding a school achieved and how successful it was. That suggests other factors are at least as important as funding, if not more so.

@phivephatphish I agree with you but I worry about the children who are perfectly capable but do not have drive, ambition, or self confidence.

My elder daughter is very bright and hard working, but is quiet, shy and she had no self confidence. She has a summer birthday and socially was much less mature than her friends at primary school - very much a follower than a leader. Academically she stood out at primary school, and she wasn't comfortable with that - she wanted to be like everyone else.

Our local secondary school ('satisfactory' in those days, which is equivalent to 'requires improvement' now) had a problem with poor behaviour and bullying. Some children did well there but they tended to be the confident popular ones - who could 'get away with' being clever because they were 'cool', sporty or popular for other reasons.

There was no way I would have sent my daughter there, so we went the independent route. I know we were lucky to have that choice, but I know two girls a couple of years older than my daughter who were bullied at the local secondary school and ended up at independents on full bursaries.

We could throw billions more into schools, and make them all ‘excellent’. But if a child or their parents, can’t be bothered to aim high...it won’t make a jot of difference.
My nephew’s parents never attended one single parent teacher meeting. They were too busy moaning about the unfairness of their kid not having the kit the other kids had. Even though the school even helped with that too. I spent months helping to get him into a good school..he had the world at his feet. Instead of his parents being joyful at getting a place..they were moaning about how early his bus was. It wasn’t an opportunity to them. It was an obstacle to a longer lie-in.
The school bent over backwards to help this boy. Pastoral care for him, was a department in itself..and when his parents couldn’t be arsed to make sure he was actually turning up at school. They started coming out to him. In the end, nothing made a difference. They were annoyed by the intrusion..it wasn’t ‘help’ to them. And now 8 years on, the boy is a working man. Stuck in a job that doesn’t inspire him or offer any salary growth or great prospects. And unbelievably, they all still moan about the rich kids having it all. They sneer at our success and our kids’ private schools, full of hardworking, aspirational kids like our own. It’s a mindset, that no amount of money or motivating, could ever change. The state can only do so much. Provide the opportunity to learn, which is what they do....but the rest I’m afraid, whether rich or poor...is down to us.

Parents in the UK are absolutely obsessed with getting their child into the right school. It's much less of a big deal in other countries. What it comes down to is that children of less savvy or well - resourced parents lose out. So social inequality. The fact that a very small minority of kids get over the obstacles doesn't disprove that. Plenty fall by the wayside.

I agree with you OP. The system in the UK is the root of deep inequality and social/class division in the UK. But, the truth is, the state education system is desperately underfunded. If it were not for that, the divisions would be nowhere near as significant. (I work in education)

@Mumto2two I couldn’t agree more. You see much moaning about poor education and poor opportunities, when mostly it’s ‘you didnt put this on a plate and feed me with a silver spoon’. For people with drive, ambition and determination the opportunities are all there, despite significant obstacles.

Well given one of our young family members recently left a ‘needs improvement’ school, to study at Cambridge, that clearly doesn’t really hold you back either. He wanted that for himself, and he made sure he got it.
While another nephew who had the brains but zero drive & aspiration, and was at an excellent top performing grammar, left with a couple of Ds. He couldn’t even be arsed to go to school half the time... as I said before. It is aspiration that divides them. One has none, and the other has it in spades.

@CherryPavlova, ok, so I clearly didn’t grow up poor, by your standards. But my dad did (almost certainly a contributing factor to his early death). But as @Mum2totwo says being poor doesn’t mean you lack aspiration- he was determined that his children didn’t have the life he had. Interestingly, as one of 6 siblings, 4 of the six chose to carry on living in poverty, as do their children. All 6 presented with the same set of circumstances, 2 chose a different/better path.
Your suggestion I think there should be equality of opportunities for all is admirable, but how on earth do you propose that it ever happens? (Communism doesn’t work). People who can give their children opportunities will and those who can’t/don’t want to/would rather spend the money on fags and booze won’t.

But not all state schools are equal, are they? That's why some get rated Outstanding whereas you might get unlucky and have none in your area, you might have ahigher proportion of Requires Improvement or ony satisfactory etc

What I think is the REAL shame is that the UK government does not invest to make ALL state schools as excellent as each other so that all children get an excellent education wherever they live.

They do but

It is not wealth that divides us in that sense..it is aspiration

Totally agree

Education is there for those that want it.

Not all children learn via the current system, a lot isn’t relevant to their lives. Some school spend more money on pastoral care because it’s needed, just to get the kids in the door.

School is no longer and walk in school sit down and learn in rows - it’s kids who don’t have the basic equipment, the right uniform, they haven’t eaten or even slept, listening to parents or neighbours arguing or loud music, being woke up by police raids, or gangs in the street. They have worries other kids have never even thought of.

It’s fine for Lucy waking up her clean bed, having breakfast made and a car collect her for lessons, having the right equipment and her only thought is what to wear later to her yoga class.

Yes @CherryPavlova... I have been there. In that pithy poor trap you describe. And believe it or not..poor people can have aspirations too. To better themselves, and their children too. It is not wealth that divides us in that sense..it is aspiration.

I have two children one in state and one in private - the schools suit them as individuals. The one in state did not want to go private as he prefers to walk to school and have local friends and he is in an excellent much sort after state school. What I think is the REAL shame is that the UK government does not invest to make ALL state schools as excellent as each other so that all children get an excellent education wherever they live. Private schools are about choice and I don't get the argument about not having them. The smaller class sizes suit her and I pay for that option. If all the private school children went to state schools the government would have to fund their places so there would be even less money spent on schools.

Poor is homelessness. It’s food banks. It’s no hot water. It’s an electricity key you can’t afford to top up. Poor is living hand to mouth. It’s walking to school despite it being two miles away and it pouring down. Poor is not having a coat.

My experience of bursaries is they generally go to the middle classes. They are usually less than 50% so you need quite a bit to top up in addition to transport, uniform, laptops, sportswear. In some cases, it’s clever accounting to reduce disposable income.
It’s very rarely the homeless child. Very rarely the looked after child. Very rarely the child of a single parent on benefits, living in a deprived community.

There are the odd cases where the poorer children are helped - OAT offered a sixth form scholarship to two pupils to Gresham’s, for example but that was private funding by the OAT board and not generosity from Gresham’s.

Sorry from 1990 it’s just over £21, 000 plus benefits. Significantly less, it’s true. That really isn’t the norm for independent schools. There are a few like Christ’s that do provide for a wider income range but the vast majority don’t.
What’s second hand clothes got to do with it? Even the public schools have a much used second hand uniform trade. Lots of people don’t have holidays.
Oddly, I’m not dissimilar but much older. The difference is I think there should be equality of opportunities for all.

That's a lot of money. Not one person in mywhole famy earns that much

However, phivephatphish has pointed out that CherryPavlova is 10 years out. £10k in 1990 is equivalent to less than £23k today.

Our daughter’s school bursary scheme, as are many others...are not funded by long standing charitable trusts, they are most certainly, funded by the general income pot.
We are not talking the likes of Eton here, and other such long established schools, a lot of independent schools, are relatively new enterprises, and do not have the wealth these schools have. Yet another grossly misinformed statement on here...

£10 k in 1980 is equivalent to over £43.5k now

That's a lot of money. Not one person in mywhole famy earns that much

@CherryPavlova. He died in 1990, so you’ll need to revise your figures by 10 years. There was no pension and no life insurance. No holidays, clothes from jumble sales, pretty much second hand everything. No heating in the winter. Please don’t patronise me by telling me that I don’t know what poor is. Being poor drove me to where I am today. I vowed that I’d never have to say ‘we can’t afford it’ to my children, and I never have.

@CherryPavlova
Given your assertion that ‘Anyone who can afford to send a child Independently- whether with bursary or not is definitely not poor’
What annual income are you defining as being ‘definitely not poor?

phivephatphish The assisted places scheme was a bit different. £10 k in 1980 is equivalent to over £43.5k now - not exactly breadline income. One assumes that was boosted by widowed mothers allowance, child benefit, possibly your father’s pension too.
I’m really sorry your father died - that doesn’t necessarily make you poor.
Your fees aren’t subsidising others. Most bursaries come from long standing charitable trusts set up when schools create for the education of the poor became the preserve of the wealthy.

ow I manage it is I work very hard and forego any sort of social life, hobbies, luxuries or vices for myself to pay for private tuition, private music tuition, extra swimming lessons (above what the school provides), sports coaching and also some hobbies.

Um, plenty of people work hard and forego luxuries and still wouldn't be able to afford that. Not all hard-working people have a high enough wage.

@prh47bridge Thanks so much for this. Great info!

@CherryPavlova Anyone who can afford to send a child independently- whether with bursary or not is definitely not poor.

My dad died when we were young. My mum worked part time taking home less than £10k/year. Is that poor enough for you? 2 of us went through private school with full fees paid in the days of assisted places and the youngest one had full fees paid via bursary and scholarship. We didn’t go on the school trips and we had second hand uniform. We all have highly successful careers and all send our own DC privately, happily paying full fees in the knowledge that our full fees will subsidize someone else’s children.
There is a single parent on MN who previously posted about sending 4 DC through private schools with an income of £20k. It isn’t impossible. But most ‘poor’ people won’t have the skills to apply for a bursary or scholarship in the first place. I think private schools should be actively looking for children to support (ie going into the local sink school) rather than waiting for motivated parents to come knocking.

Charity status for private schools has recently been abolished in Scotland

No it hasn't. They are losing charitable business rates relief. Those that are charities will still be charities and will continue to benefit from the other tax reliefs available to charities.