Super bright kids

My Daughter has been offered an academic scholarship to London school.

She is at state primary.
She took part in a scheme in yr 5 so she had 3 hrs of challenging subjects outside her normal school stuff once a month.
I have no idea what her scores are only that her results we were told were very high and she had excellent references from school and a good interview.

No one in our family has ever considered a private school before now.
The scheme was designed to identify kids that would not normally sit the 11+ but were thought suitable by their head teachers. The borough we live in doesn't have Grammer schools.

She sat one school exam as we couldn't afford to do more.
For her it paid off.
we are very lucky.

she didn't do any other lessons except homework set by scheme. She reads a lot.
Not pushy, she has a natural ability and fortunately for her the right teachers noticed and helped her to improve her potential.

I would expect everyone in a superselective school to get ten top grades. That’s the point of them. Why are children at these schools doing relatively badly? DS is a classic case in point. I would say that some of the teaching is less than exceptional, a lazy child (DS) won't work as hard as they're capable of (and they're not pushed in the same way as they might be as the brightest in a comprehensive), and you cannot underestimate how many achieve top grades with the help of additional tutoring.

@daisypond Totally agree. But as @HolesinTheSoles says above, these grammar selection tests are highly flawed. They are not tutor proof at all, and the vast majority of kids are tutored. Certainly around here they are, starting in year 3 is not unusual. Usually year 4. It’s utter madness. And if they don’t scrape through, it seems they are getting through appeal processes rather easily these days too. Holding back the bits of data they don’t want them to see, and only presenting the good bits. I know so many people whose kids have had mediocre results at grammar. The grammars are becoming too populated with average ability kids...which isn’t quite what they were intended for. But at least it keeps the tutoring industry afloat.

I would expect everyone in a superselective school to get ten top grades. That’s the point of them

The point for us was single sex, size of school (tiny) and the range of subjects offered. The fact that the education is superb is an added bonus. Our first priority was a school where DD would be happy and enjoy her educational experience.

I’m sometimes surprised how badly children at super selective schools do in the end. PP above saying their DC was in a superselective grammar but was only middling there and outshone by those with ten top grades at GCSE. I would expect everyone in a superselective school to get ten top grades. That’s the point of them. Why are children at these schools doing relatively badly? One of my DC was only in the middle set in an inner city comprehensive and still got 8A* and 5A.

Dd currently has 3 offers, with 3 scholarships, and waiting for one more result.

She is naturally bright and found maths, vr and nvr a total breeze, but English was her weakness despite her early age exceptional reading and writing skills. There’s no way she would have got this far without tutoring on 1) exam technique 2) learning additional stuff that her prep school hadn’t yet taught her in maths 3) increasing her vocabulary through a wider range of reading books than her prep school were recommending but also using vocabulary flash cards as it increased the range of words she used in her creative writing pieces 4) a lot of focus on her comprehension skills.

To elaborate a bit further a child who performs very well in 11+ will likely perform very well up to GCSE and do at least quite well at A-level (assuming they maintain a decent work ethic and weren't overly coached) but when they begin to look at getting the top A-level grades and doing university entrance exams is often the first time they begin to struggle as they begin to need a little more creativity and depth of thought which they may or may not be capable of.

People who have lots of offers tend to post because partly they want to show off and partly they have the luxury of choice and as such a decision to make. In the same way people who can afford private schools or to move house into an area with great schools will post more often because they're the ones with decisions to make. If your didn't pass any 11+ and can't afford private or to move house you really have to stick with the school you're allocated.

I have experience with selection and there are definitely children who perform well with almost no revision at all - a few tests over the summer to familiarise them with the format and that's it. Some parents manage to scrape their children through with at least a year, sometimes two of tutoring and the summer holiday as a full time 11+ boot camp.

The 11+ definitely isn't a perfect test of ability. They are very standard tests that need to be performed quickly and carefully. They suit a certain type of intelligence (you need to be bright but not exceptionally talented). The top London selective independent schools actually have much more rigorous exams which really test understanding to a greater depth.

Our child has now notched up 3 high scoring grammar passes and 3 scholarships. Has never ever been tutored or prepped...but has consistently had almost maximum CAT scores across all batteries. Not studious, barely reads...finds maths a breeze. Yes of course there are children like that. Our other child was not like this at all, but had many other skills which thankfully stood them in good stead. Bring naturally ‘clever’ doesn’t guarantee success. It might secure places at schools..but that’s only the start of a very long journey.

Ds age 15 (August baby) is predicated all 8’s and 9’s for GCSE’s this summer - he failed his 11 plus. It was for the Surrey (Wallington / Wilson) grammars which are super competitive. Didn’t matter as he goes to an outstanding school anyway. But it’s not the be all and end all. Ds was 2 marks under the pass mark, but even at pass mark he wouldn’t have got in as the pass Mark is super high. A friends son did get in and she’s spent last few years trying to get him into DS’s state secondary, as he doesn’t like the test test test environment. We didn’t tutor DS as I didn’t really feel it’s right tutoring a child to pass the test if that would mean he would struggle. I also don’t think it would have suited him being an average student instead of one of the best. Not because he’s big headed as he’s really not, but he does enjoy being a top student in his school

I think it’s also worth discussing what ‘bright’ actually means in terms of how it translates to exams/tests/interviews.

My DD did ok in the Wandsworth test (VR/NVR) but nowhere not well enough for a selective school using that test. She then didn’t get through to second stage WHS which again was VR and NVR.

But then got offers from schools with a more traditional mix of English, maths and then interviews... and one school that does include VR and NVR and one that includes VR. But maybe her maths and English and her interviews pushed her up? Do I think she’s ‘not bright’ because VR and NVR are not her strengths? No, absolutely not.

There is no perfect system in all this and the differences between some of these children who get a place vs don’t will be absolutely tiny. Every year, schools will have to turn down kids who would do brilliantly there. The head of LEH has said this.

I am not , Ox... Will raise with the school... I was surprised at both ends - the extremely high and the low... Although he is bright, I do not believe that he is substantially brighter than my DD, whose mean is 133 and quite level across all CAT4 aspects...

That is not usual at all re the verbal reasoning. Was it the first time he did verbal reasoning? Was it on the computer - glitch?

I think that I might talk to DS’s school about that... DS got 141, 139, 139 and...111 in verbal reasoning...? Is that usual...?

Re Cats, in year 4 and 5 our max is 141 but in previous years we had higher than that (having just checked). No idea if it has changed or not. Never even paid any attention previously as buried at back of school report and teachers always said they are just an indication for them. So if they have a child with a high Cat score who is underperforming in class they know to intervene.

I know that currently the maximum CAT a child can achieve is 141. Was it different earlier?

Re CAT scores, have checked old school reports for you and these have always been between 135-145 since year 2. So one year she might get 143 for general maths and another year 139. You get the gist. So yes, I think high CAT scores (consistently over a number of years) can give an indication as to how a DC might do in these tests.

My DD got high scores in grammar tests for superselectives with minimum prep. BUT she is an all rounder - naturally good at maths and has devoured any book in sight since age 3/4. She does cross words for fun, likes strange puzzles and art so verbal/non verbal reasoning come naturally to her. She likes writing stories to destress- this wasn’t tested. She is a certain type who would do well in these tests and as she also has 2 instruments at high grades, head girl status, some sports, good drama and is compliant she would likely have passed some selective independent tests too. However, she is no genius at all and she isn’t even that intellectual. You might get a child who is totally amazing at maths and will rock the academic world in the future but wouldn’t pass these tests. They favour a certain type of child. You might get a kid that has read tons of science books and will end up with a first at Oxbridge etc in the future who wouldn’t pass these tests as s/he reluctant writer and don’t read fiction. I wouldn’t define passing these tests equal to super duper bright.

Oops, posted on wrong thread! Ignore my last post

hairyhattie that’s really helpful. Even with 4 A-levels as standard, 75 per A/A* at A-levels would be extremely good.

I’m curious if their definition of the cohort is flexible so that they can exclude pupils originally included if they don’t progress as expected

Honestly? She’s very bright.

We had no need to tutor, however she was at a private prep which did NVR and VR as standard in the curriculum.

We did zero prep bar turn up on the day of the exam (she took one, in addition was offered a place at a local indie on the merit of her report from primary before she took the exam - she actually withdrew from taking it)

Super bright kids exist, you must know that from your own experience from your school days. Some children are more determined. More interested in learning. And if they are lucky, they have parents who are interested in children's education. I just don't think there are many children who can figure out things by themselves, but with parents' help and their willingness to learn, they can learn things way ahead easily.
I think innate ability do matter, but also the environment matter a lot.

I'm overseas moving to London - so some of this (maybe all of this) is so new and overwhelming

I must say - my daughter must have done well because we got an offer from cheltenham ladies college, she was invited for an interview at South Hampstead HS, and is waitlisted at Channing.

She is an exceptional interviewee. Well versed , global and confident.

So - we are deeply disappointed that we got NO offers in London day independent schools. (Obviously we don't qualify for grammar schools)

It makes me question the system as a whole? Why are the 11+ consortium test result (or any ind schools results) publicized ? Why is the WL process also "unquestionable"?

Makes me think that factors other than the applicant's performance and abilities are more important.

Is it so?????

Do any Brits question this too???

atomic - we did think long and hard about dd1 (dc2) and grammar school, whether she would be better off in a less academic school, but top of the class. ironically she is probably the cleverest of my 3, but she is a more reserved personality.

But for a hundred other reasons, including the fact that she is gender questioning (which we didn't know at the time) the caring supportive all girls school has been an amazing choice.

So, it isn't always about the academic. We have always told ours that we have chosen the grammar in order to give them as many choices as possible in life.