Choice between grammar and good local school

As someone has said upthread "a bright child with an interested parent will do well wherever". The only thing I would add would be to look at sixth form options. If your ultimate goal is university then, all things being equal, I would choose the school that allows an easy transition to sixth form and beyond.

There are lots of really good points raised by PP which will be really useful to parents in your situation with a Y6 child. My confusion is why you feel you need to make a decision now? You are already tutoring and competition for grammar spaces is fierce. Why not see if your child gets a spot before worrying? You may find you have no decision to make?

(If your child is able to comfortably secure a grammar space you might want to consider academic scholarships to local indies if the commute would be shorter?)

My son is a 'good' local state. He is middle of class bright and enjoys being a bigger fish in a smaller pond, his self esteem is definitely better than if he was dragging along the bottom of somewhere more academically selective. He has a 7 minute walk to school which is definitely less stressful when he has forgotten something! Behaviour is a bit hit and miss in the lower sets but every school will have some element of this.

You're near my area too. We had the choice with DD2, who is in Y6, who did v well in grammar school tests (didn't bother with dd1 taking the grammar tests as she wouldn't have liked it). We did it to keep our options open with her as she's v v geeky/passionate about certain subjects - and really likes codes, so NVR and VR were fun for her.

But, having seen how her sister has thrived in the local (Good) comprehensive (now Y8 so we've had plenty of time to see) - we've come to the conclusion local is better. DD1 doesn't have to commute so is involved with all she wishes, and she is academically challenged and has some fab teachers. There are studious children in all the comps round here, and expectations are high for them.

There are many tribes in a comprehensive, including plenty of studious ones - do go and see before you decide. I know children who have done outstandingly well in most of the SE London comps - parental input and support is what really makes the difference.

As I thought, you're in my area. The grammars out in Bexley and Kent are fine but so too are lots of the local schools. Although lots of people round here put their children through tutoring, even passing the 11+ won't guarantee a place unless your child is in the top 180 scorers as places are allocated by distance. How would your child feel if he passed the test but didn't get a place?

Go and have a look at Thomas Tallis, John Roan, Forest Hill, the Prendergasts, Trinity and the many other good schools we have in our area. I'm certain you'll see some studious children there.

Maybe if you’re around for an inset day for your dc’s school that’s different from the grammar you’re interested in, it would be worth doing the trip at goingvto school time.

As your dc is only y5 it will feel a lot to them as that extra couple of years to y7 will make a difference, but you will be able to judge and decide how good the commute is - lots of changes or simple, likelihood of a seat, behaviour of other school kids en route - both for your intended school but others along the route that might bully or intimidate kids from other schools and so on.

An hour on a not-crowded train with a walk or short bus ride at the end is different and less stress than a 40 minute journey that has lots of changes (especially if they are tight on time) or very crowded so risks not being able to get on and would be unpleasant as a journey. So worth checking out on a school day...

I would avoid a school with a commute in excess of an hour, I don't think it worth it. With regard to grammar schools, being a grammar school does not magically make it a good school, there are some dodgy ones out there. I would recommend comparing the progress 8 score of schools. Progress 8 is a rather flawed metric when used in schools, but I think can provide an interesting comparison tool for parents. Basically, if the P8 score is positive, that school is above average for GCSE results, if it is negative it is below average and a score of 0 is bang on average. Now, Kent never lost its grammar school system unlike the rest of the country. This means that there are a lot of grammar schools, but not all of them are great. By comparison, across the Thames in Essex, most of the grammars got purged, but the result is that the few that do remain are pretty damned good. Time for some direct comparisons.

This Grammar school in Sittingbourne, Kent has a P8 score of -0.42. This means that compared to other schools with similar students, those at this school on average dropped about half a grade across their subjects at GCSE.

www.compare-school-performance.service.gov.uk/school/137800/borden-grammar-school/secondary

By comparison, this grammar in Essex has a P8 score of +0.85, meaning on average being at this school added almost a whole grade to the students' GCSE results. The school will actually be disappointed with this as last year it was +1.1.

Finally, a decent Kent comprehensive. Note the P8 score of +0.31.
www.compare-school-performance.service.gov.uk/school/136456/rainham-school-for-girls/secondary

I would say overall, good grammar > good comp > bad grammar > bad comp. So what have we discovered? Good schools are good and bad schools are bad. How profound.

Seriously though, I would find a decent school (comp or grammar) within 1 hour of your house that your child thinks they would feel comfortable at (so go to open evenings).

No way would I choose a school 1.5 hours away.

Mine have flourished( in very academic cohorts) in the top sets of good comps, their local friends feel like second family.

Visit, do the journeys by public transport, let your DC decide.

Is there a younger sibling who might be less academic?

A bright child with interested parent will do just as well at a comp as anywhere else. Grammar schools generally get better results because they cream off the very best students. Behaviour may possibly be better but teaching may not necessarily be - some really good teachers will prefer a comp because they can make a real difference and some weaker teachers may prefer the easier ride they'll get at a grammar.

The best thing to do is visit the schools and see which ones you prefer.

Grammar.
If your son is that bright he will flourish

Sorry for typo

Go for the Grammar School, always. Mine did the 1.5 hours journey in the morning and again in the evening. Being in an academic cohort helped them. But your choice, based on your circumstances.

Go for the GrammarS hood, always. Mine did the 1.5 hours journey in the morning and again in the evening. Being in an academic cohort helped them. But your choice, based on your circumstances.

Look simply at the school, not whether it’s grammar, comprehensive or, not relevant here, but independent. How does it suit your child?

We have the “choice” of two grammars where we live. One we adore and the other had a really off-putting vibe. So much so I haven’t even applied to it despite DD passing the 11+.

Our choices are first - independent school, second - all girls grammar school, third - toss up between another independent or our local comp.

All schools are wildly different. I can see huge differences between our local comp and the grammar but less so versus the third choice independent. What I can see is where my daughter will be most at home and thrive.

Your gut reaction is usually the right one.

It totally depends on your DC's personality but personally with a bright child I would send them to the closest good school and save the money you would have spent on travel to grammar and spend it on opportunities outside of school

I invigilate out of county Kent test days, it is a lot of pressure, some kids are fine and take it in their stride but some really find it scary and fall to bits, I also tutor and a lot of the children I tutor are bright kids who were top of their primary class with tutoring from year 4 or 5, got into grammar and then their parents dropped the tutoring coz they are at grammar now and they fell behind very quickly, which is when they come to me, it's why I refuse to tutor 11+ these days (I did, because its good money and I had a very good reputation, but then I saw what struggling at grammar can do to their confidence and felt bad for pushing kids to get into a school that didn't suit them) I'm not saying that will definitely happen to your DC but I think it is worth thinking about especially as DC will have a lot of travelling time and lots of homework so adding tutoring on will leave very little free time.

My bright, studious child who probably lives in a similar area to you, goes to an excellent local school. She too was top of the class in Y5 but had no tutoring at all and secured a guaranteed grammar place. She turned it down in favour of a place at a local comprehensive.

She's in Y10 now, is thriving, has 'found her tribe' of equally studious, bright, sporty, musical friends and they are all within walking distance of their school. It hasn't been hard for her to find others who have a good work ethic, there's no shame in doing well or being a geek and the intake of the school represents the local population. The only downside for her so far has been that the school stayed open when it snowed

Good local, but there's no harm in asking your dc to see whether they would want to try for the grammar. Let them have input.

I forgot to say, DD1 went to revision classes almost every day after school in y11, which would have been very difficult with a long journey. I swear one of her keys to success was having a 10-minute journey. (So not wasting time).

I had same dilemma as you OP (and you clearly live in roughly same area as us).

Good local school has worked well for us. DDs very happy and DD1 did exceptionally well in her GCSEs (8s and 9s).

Have you visited the schools yet? What does your child think? Also, maybe do the journey a couple of times to see how they feel - especially in the winter.

We had a similar choice but the grammar schools are in nearby towns with haphazard transport, particularly if they miss the school bus (if they oversleep in the morning, have after school activities etc) which would have big knock on effects on needing to get them to/from school. We also had the choice of several somprehensives in the town we live, although luckily our three closest are all excellent.

We went for local - and really don’t regret it, particularly having spoken to other dc/parents who chose grammar schools. Ds1 in particular is involved in lots of teams and clubs, so not having to travel to get him is great - doing it in the other direction would have seriously impacted the family if he did everything or he would have had to not do stuff. Academically he is doing well and he is also getting lots of opportunities to take part in ‘stuff’ where they need a handful of kids to do things - local competitions, workshops, tournaments etc which he might not have done to the same degree if the entire year was comprised of nice bright kids!

Ds2 is dyslexic but bright - so I don’t know if he would have passed the grammar school entrance exams. He’s also not as confident as ds1 so I would worry about him much more needing to travel between towns. But he has been able to go to the same school as his brother, where he is also thriving and able to benefit from a fab senco team supporting him.

As you’ve probably guessed - I would definitely vote for local good school every time!

I had a long commute to school as a child because my parents thought the private school was so much better than our good local comp.

I was permanently tired, couldn't do out of school activities because of the difficulties of getting home and not wanting to cut into an already short evening, and couldn't see my friends out of school. I might have got good results but I was miserable.

My DC are going to the local comp. Going to the grammar in the next county (which many local children do) would have instantly taken another 1.5 hours out of every day. I think there's better ways they can spend that time.

My oldest dc sounds v similar and we have a similar decision to make.

I am very much leaning towards the good local comp for several reasons -

Time at home, with siblings and as a family. The grammar will involve being at home very little during the working week. Her siblings will be home 2 hours before her and may eat without her. This sounds against my general aims for our family especially as adolescence hits and she will spend much less time with us and at home at the weekends too.

Extracurricular clubs and sport. our DD is an enthusiastic person who wants to try lots of stuff and joins in a lot. She also competes in sport for a local team. Going to a school with longer hours may mean she misses practice sessions for her local sport and I'm concerned as to how I would facilitate her inevitable wish to take part in lots of extra stuff at a school 45mins away without her siblings having to spend hours in the car collecting her. At the good local comp she can take advantage of all opportunities as she wishes as it is a 10 minute drive to collect her if needed.

Friendships I want DD to have friends from school she can socialise with and visit at weekends and holidays. The grammar takes from such a wide rural area that parental input would most certainly be needed. At the local comp she could make arrangements and use public transport and become more independent as I would hope for as a teen.

Emotional well being I haven't heard great things about the level of pressure they're under at the grammar and how some of the dc don't cope well. My DD is a typical high achiever who wants to do well. She puts enough pressure on herself without any external additions and I think she has the capacity to get v stressed. She also finds 'cool' girls v hard to manage and has been made v unhappy by some dc in the past. The thought of her having long bus journeys and being far away whilst being made miserable is awful. If she is closer to home I will feel more able to see how she is emotionally and help support her if necessary.

Add all this to the fact that I'm dubious about the unfairness of selective education in general (all the above comments about better facilities, teaching and opportunities for children who are undoubtedly already more fortunate make me uneasy). Plus a couple of teacher friends feel that the teaching in the local comps is more innovative, engaging and inspiring because it has to be..

My dc have engaged and interested, supportive parents. They will do well wherever they go because we will encourage that to happen. There are too many downsides and not enough upsides to make me keen to go down he grammar route.

That said, if dc are keen I will support their choice and shut up!

We chose the grammar, an hour door to door via bus, over the local outstanding comprehensive a 5 min walk away. (It is a true comp as there are no grammars in our county). 95%+ of local kids go to the comp, only 1 or 2 every year from the primary go to the grammar.

I think they would have done well which ever they chose, so in the end I let them have the final decision. We looked around both schools and spoke to people who had kids at both. I felt my kids had to be involved in the decision as if they chose the grammar then they had to be happy with the extra time spent on the bus, not being with their friends etc.

At the grammar they are out of the house 7.30 - 5. Had they gone to the local school it would have been 8.20 -3 three days a week and 8.20 - 4 the other 2 days. So they lose over 10 hours a week at home due to the school they chose. But getting the bus and going to a different town has been great for their independence.

The grammar has a huge catchment so the student population is way more diverse in terms of race, religion, home languages etc which has been great for learning a bit more about the world compared to our very small world town.

My eldest has particularly found her own tribe at the grammar, it's given her the confidence to be the geek that she is, which I'm not sure would have been so easy at the comp. There are far more like minded souls.

I'd also say the facilities in terms of sports, music, science etc are far better at the grammar and they offer more extra curricular activities than the comp but that could just be down to the individual schools rather than grammar Vs comp.

I would visit all schools you could realistically send your DC to (I think 1.5 hour commute is too far though, maybe just go for nearer ones) and really make the DC involved in the process as if they really want to go with their friends to the local comp, going through the whole 11+ process might be a waste of time. They need to want to put the work in to get to the grammar. You can't do it for them.

I would opt for the quality of life every time and go for the good local, plus tutoring if he needs it. School is more than just results and that extra 1.5 hours could be spent on clubs, hobbies, sports and other activities. Plus, it means he won't be knackered from travelling when the workload begins to bite for GCSEs.

Curious to know why your child is being tutored?
In terms of the commute - DS2's journey to his state secondary school is about 45 minutes anyway. (10 minute lift to the station, 15 minute train journey, 20 minute walk) - so I wouldn't see that as a major problem.
See if you child passes the 11+ then you can keep your options open.