Is there still a significant different in pupil behaviour and ambition between state and private school?

Dangling.
I only looked it up.

they are all career focussed at a very young age, some as young as 8.

And this is a good thing?

From my own experience, and only my own, most definitely.
For us it is worlds apart from our local state schools.
Mine is a boarder though in a specialist school, they are all career focussed at a very young age, some as young as 8.
I hear the 16 year old girls current conversations include not letting a man and children stand in the way of their careers.

Where on earth are you getting your stats from, Oblomov?

Even your figure of the number of GCSE students per annum is well off... 4.1 million kids in England, NI and Wales in each year group???? Try 700,000! Over 5 times fewer

I went to a private school and work in a state secondary

To me the big difference is the amount of encouragement and pushing and basic giving a crap the parents give. Which leads to students excelling and achieving

I mean don't get me wrong of course there are parents who give a crap and push and encourage in a secondary school and vice versa at the private school. Especially in top sets.
When you're spending thousands on your child's education you are more invested in their education. Both financially and with your heart.
And with that in mind, to be blunt it's cold hard cash. Parents and kids as an extension can afford experiences which are then translated into attainment. Like tutors and educational trips in the holidays.

And when your parents put in that much effort then it's only natural that the kids do to. Which leads to the behaviour aspect as they have more to prove and don't want to let their parents down

Yes I realise that you get great hardworking kids at the secondary and there was some awful behaviour at the private. And there's oxbridge kids from the secondary and kids who got a U in the private . And what I've just made a lot of sweeping statements.

Equally when quoting results for private schools it is worth knowing whether the school is genuinely selective by academic attainment (ie has a large number of applicants who don't pass the entrance exam), or simply by the ability to pay.

I also think when quoting pass rates to be clear whether the 'comp' is really a comp (i.e. in a non selective area) or actually has an intake more akin to a secondary modern (i.e. grammar schools which take the top 25% away).

I've been to both state and private schools. The private school was pretty dire tbh, behaviourally and with academic achievement. Excellent for sport however.

Our local comp achieves significantly better results than the local private school.

Needless to say my own DC go to state school and will continue to do so.

It's very school and area dependent.

I do think when quoting 'pass rates' it is REALLY important to state whether it is 4-9 or 5-9 - because those are so different.

Nationally, around 70% of GCSEs were awarded 4s and above.

At our state comprehensive behaviour seems to be good - I've never heard any stories about a lesson being disrupted by bad behaviour. There are quite a lot of clubs the kids can join. The teaching is largely ok, as far as I can tell. It's in a largely middle class area. Unfortunately, there is no setting, which means that children who find a subject really difficult are in the same class as children who find it easy. I don't like that approach. There's also not a lot of communication with parents.
A good thing about state schools is that your child has a right to be there. Private schools are run as businesses.

You do not just send DC to a private school for results though. There is ethos, facilities, sport and other factors. Certainly art and drama and music are oftenmuch better. The OP is right about those but the results argument is a red herring. DC are offered places on academic ability so you would expect result to be good.

Oblomov20. Hundreds of children in Surrey and Hampshire do not get all GCSEs at grade 9 either. There are only around 850 of those in the whole country!!!!

My LA county rate is 77% overall for 4-9 pass rate including maths and english. So not too shabby!

Going to a private school does not mean you can hold your drink either it would appear! There are fairly awful DC in all schools.Private schools see it less in the classroom because they cherry pick children and move children on if they are a problem. Of course they have no idea what DC are doing at parties. Although the appointed head boy at Harrow was not allowed to be head boy after certain behaviour at a summer party!

JoJo,

I agree, but I think the reluctance to open their results to scrutiny and comparison - a luxury not afforded to any state school, who have results and Ofsted reports relentlessly published and made available in searchable and rankable forms - is unfortunate at best.

It feeds the disinformation war, where private schools state that their results / curriculum are 'better / more advanced than those of state schools', while a true examination of the data would show this is not the case.

MyuMe, I also agree that, locally, the drugs problem is worse in the private and selective schools, while perhaps the knife crime is worse in some of the state comprehensive schools ... each to their own vices!

"It is very difficult to quantify but parental involvement and encouragement in education is the biggest driver of success. However I would exclude parental involvement and encouragement dressed up as huge pressure to succeed at all costs and at the expense of happiness".

God, this this THIS times about a million.

The pressure on some children is insane.

I hate generalisation.

I went to the local comp and then a run down 6th form college.

One of my friends had gone on to a top public school at 11 and at Alevel stage invited to me a house party at hers whilst the parents were away.

Filled with children from all the public schools, think St Paul's, St Paul's Girls, Emmanuel, Putney High, LEH, etc.

The behaviour was deplorable. Puking on curtains, having sex in the upstairs bedrooms, drugs, pissing on carpets because it would be funny, etc.

No doubt they all got top grades and went on to stellar careers but don't assume their behaviour is any better when you and the school arent looking.

@cantkeepawayforever

Independent schools position themselves differently and have different target markets. Some strive to be academic while others cater for less able pupils. The latter ones don’t bang on about results but tend to focus on being nurturing with a variety of opportunities and a nice experience for prospective pupils.

Incidentally I have just tried to compare academic data from state and private secondaries locally - as locally, the state comprehensive outperforms many of the private schools in terms of GCSE - but the private schools choose not to release that data ... I wonder why not?

I think the problem is the framing of this question in terms of the school.

The issue is one of intake, and also the ability to get rid of those who you take in who don't meet the 'image' of the particular school, whether behaviourally or academically,

So consider a state school and private school who are truly 'matched' in terms of intake:

• Same distribution of abilities
• Same range of family income
• Same range of parent job types and parental level of education
• Same % of SEN, of all types - so the same % of children with specific learning differences, the same % of children with EBD and SEMH difficulties, the same % of children with SEN affecting learning.
• Same % children who would qualify for pupil premium

Then - and only then - would you be able to compare the impact of school type on behaviour and academic outcomes, so only then would the impact of e.g. smaller classes, the requirement or not for PGCE of the teachers, the money that can be spent on facilities etc (ie the differences that are specific to school type not intake) be visible.

While private and state schools have non-matched intakes, and while the ability for schools of the two different types to remove pupils they don't want, are different, the impact of the schools themselves cannot be judged .... and since the intake of private and state schools in the same area are ALWAYS non-matched, a valid comparison of the impact of school type cannot be attempted.

Oh ok. Sorry if I'd mis-understood the figures and made the seem better than they were.

the country GCSE pass rate is 51.4%

Typo. Surrey county is 51.4%. English GCSE pass rate is 43%.

You’d have to go and visit each school and draw your own conclusions. I’ve worked in both and had a child in both. One thing I would say is that private schools seem to have teachers who are less stressed.

@Oblomov20

Let’s not get carried away lol there isn’t a single school in Surrey with pass rates of 88% and the country GCSE pass rate is 51.4%

www.compare-school-performance.service.gov.uk/schools-by-type?step=default&table=schools&region=936&la-name=surrey&geographic=la&for=secondary&orderby=ks4prov.0.PTL2BASICS_95&orderdir=asc

To answer your question OP, if really varies. I’ve worked in 100ish secodanries in London and they’ve ranged from very rough ones (police on premises at all times) to really, really lovely ones with fab kids. I wouldn’t say the correlation between the niceness of school, Ofsted rating and exams results is very straightforward at all.

In answer to the question, no but there is a significant difference in individual behaviour and ambition. That's it really. I have known hugely priviledged children, furnished with every opportunity available to mankind, drop out and do nothing. I've also known children from impossibly difficult backgrounds and home circumstances who were driven by an inner desire to succeed. I've known both situations at both state and private schools.

It is very difficult to quantify but parental involvement and encouragement in education is the biggest driver of success. However I would exclude parental involvement and encouragement dressed up as huge pressure to succeed at all costs and at the expense of happiness.

Plenty of schools are adept at massaging their figures in subtle ways too.

My own children (4 of them- different schools) have attended private school, top performing state comprehensive, super selective grammar and local non selective comprehensive. The school that has impressed me most is the local comp. Totally diverse intake but really genuine committed staff and a desire for everyone to reach their potential.