Is there still a significant different in pupil behaviour and ambition between state and private school?

@citychick

I think we're agreeing really, even if it doesn't seem that way.

The kind of support you're offering your son is exactly the kind of parental involvement that makes a positive difference in the long term. Helping him overcome difficulties and finding his niche.

However, telling a child they will become a doctor, dentist, lawyer or engineer regardless of whether they want to or not is not helpful. Often parents live vicariously through their children, put subtle and not so subtle pressure on them, and wear their achievements as if they were their own.

The most unhappy children I've known have this kind of expectation and pressure, and the most unhappy adults I know tend to be those forced down career pathways like medicine and law due to parental expectation.

@jojo: there are I'm sure a lot of schools in Surrey with pass rates of 88% at GCSE. But the results won't feature in the league tables because they are private. At my children's old school last year 88% of GCSEs were awarded a grade 8 or 9.

I'd be extremely impressed at any secondary modern getting 70% grades 5-9. @BubblesBuddy: where is that?

It depends in the school, both ways.

I have seen my kids go through 2 London comprehensives, gain excellent results, in schools with strong policies for preventing/ managing bullying. The kids of all abilities do well in both schools.

There has been bad behaviour and fights in the playground, but if you are not involved, you are not involved.

Setting / streaming was well managed, kids learning and achieving at the right pace for them, excellent extra-curricular opportunities in music, dance, drama, debating, maths.

I went to private school: the bullying was intense but insidious and cleverly hidden. Snobbery rife an though I achieved well I don’t think the teaching was any better than in my DC’s schools.

I don't think you can generalise.

My kids are at a great state school, regularly tops the league tables, sends students on to Oxbridge. No major issues with behaviour and if there is low level disruption it's promptly dealt with.

But not all state schools are equal. Not all private schools are equal either.

Ignore my first para. !!! Just had another look - it’s 5-9. That makes my LA a top performer but I expected that. Local secondary modern is 70% 5-9 including maths and English.

The government’s web site uses the GCSE 4-9 grades for comparison - well the one I looked at for my LAs stats. This is because most FE courses consider a 4 is the grade required for English and Maths.

Back in the 80s my LA had a fully functioning Careers Service with qualified and well paid careers officers! I know because they were part of my office structure at the LA! As for now? Nowhere near the professionalism. It’s a shadow of what it was for most DC. That’s why parents are so heavily invested!

I have one dc at state secondary and one at private primary, in very middle/upper class area in London, both hugely over-subscribed and academically excellent. My impression is if you're academically motivated and from a middle class family background you'll be fine at either.

Behaviour is different as private wont tolerate bad behaviour and would kick pupils out if so.

Outstanding teachers at both schools, but at state school the teachers have a HUGE amount more to deal with. More exposure to 'unsavoury' stuff at state (but then maybe that's cos my experience of state is at secondary as opposed to lovely sheltered primary bubble). The social side is much more diverse at state, obviously. State primary was absolutely lovely.

Bullying def seems worse at state school ime. But then my ds at state secondary has additional needs so is rather vulnerable. His school try their best and have zero tolerance, but the intake is very diverse socially and there's not enough funding or specialist training.

I don't like generalisations either. Some state schools are great. Some aren't. Some independent schools are great. Some aren't.

We didn't have the option of a good local state school, so went down the independent route. We were lucky to have that option but I'd rather have had a good school locally.

I agree with Grandmi that there are some very good grammar schools around but most of the country doesn't have that option!

" lofty career expectations drummed into them from an early age".

Ok well, if parents aren't going to try and guide their kids, then who is?
Teachers cannot do it all, can they?

If it hadn't watched my parents hard work ethic over the years and taken their lead where would I have been? Back the late 80's there was no career guidance.

And even with DS. He needed a bit of 1-1 in the beginning of primary school. I said to the senco and other involved teachers, " oh this is brilliant. We can really help him reach his potential."
What was their answer? " Oh no. He'll reach his own potential".

So even 40 years later I am still inclined to encourage my child to

find his niche and reach his potential.

And of the girls in my old school with lofty career expectations? Most are housewives with fancy degrees they have never used.

My children all went to grammar state schools and I would definitely rate them over private school. They were academically challenged and all went to decent universities and did not struggle at university. Private schools do not make you intelligent!!

The specialist school is presumably for music or ballet. That's a one off situation. Many of those children won't have particularly successful careers, but it's a vocation.

@BarbarAnna read it again, I didn’t say that I didn’t understand why people want to be happy, I said that I didn’t understand why they think it’s paramount. I.e. why they think their own happiness is important, why they prioritise it’s over more meaningful things etc. For good people life isn’t about wants, wants are selfish and they shouldn’t even come into the equation. Inevitably we are all weak and make bad decisions in the pursuit of something we want but living like that all the time is no life at all. Hedonism only suits teenagers.

@Reginabambina am lost. What post are you telling me ‘no, read it again’ about?

'they are all career focussed at a very young age, some as young as 8.
I hear the 16 year old girls current conversations include not letting a man and children stand in the way of their careers.'

Interesting. I'd await the outcomes of those young people when they grow up, mature and get into the big wild world. You may find that those lofty career aspirations have been drummed into them from an early age and they rebel. Implied expectation is a powerful and damaging thing.

Once, when discussing options with one of my children, he said that he was the ONLY pupil in his form and amongst his wider friendship group who had total control over his exam choices. This was at a private school where parents wanted their money's worth and there was much more importance placed upon careers in law, medicine, vet med., economics, pure sciences and engineering. It is things like this that are contributing to sky rocketing mental health issues in young people.

@BarbarAnna no, read it again, I struggle to understand why they think it’s important. Everyone has a selfish desire to be happy, but selfish people don’t achieve much unless they’re pushed into it. There are two ways that people serve humanity, one is by putting a greater purpose above their own happiness and the second is by being thoroughly miserable and pushing through it by sheer determination to do something worthwhile even knowing that they’ll never be happy people. People that live lives like that may not be happy but they are fulfilled. It’s easy to be happy, all you need is enough cash to get by, good health, some people that you love that love you back and a bit of self esteem. But only a simpleton would be fulfilled living that way. That’s why so many people with seemingly lovely lives have mental health problems. Don’t get me wrong I sometimes deeply envy people who can go to a responsibility free job, come home, look forward to getting drunk on the weekend etc but I couldn’t live like that. I’ve spent my entire mature life fighting against mediocrity, I couldn’t imagine accepting it. I really struggle to understand how other people do it. Maybe they just haven’t been exposed to the world I’ve seen or maybe they lie to themselves, I don’t know and I don’t understand.

JoJo - plus the Welsh and NI students, plus the English private school students makes it up to the 700,000 mark.

Sorry for massive derail - bit of a bugbear of mine at the moment... People quoting absolutely crap statistics without any critical engagement as to whether it's possible or likely, let alone true.

Disruption isn’t necessarily a bad thing or an indicator of low attainment though. I was disruptive at school, so we’re a lot of people I know. It’s just a question of character. We were young and needed to learn when and how to rebel and against what. That’s exactly what our schools taught us though. We were taught to rebel in productive ways, good rebellion, intellectual rebellion, rebellion against arbitrary authority, rebellion against the get good grades, go to university, become a corporate slave still being paid by somebody else at age 50 mentality etc was humoured. Rebellion against good in manners, kindness or hard work was not. The measure of a good school isn’t grades, or career paths, it’s attainment 40 years after pupils have left. Just look at a list of notable alumni and you’ll be able to tell whether a school has been successful in truly educating and forming its pupils rather than merely prepping them for exams. It’s not about how you learn but what you learn. If you learn to be like everybody else then you haven’t learned anything at all.

At specialist schools that are training children towards a specific career - e.g music or dance - then being career focused at point of entry, often primary age, is 'ordinary', otherwise they wouldn't be at that type of school.

That type of school will always be for a small minority of very particular children.

Agree with @Grumpyoldpersonwithcats career focussed at age 8 is surely not good!

Oblomov20 I think we are the same state school in town of W in Surrey? There's no doubt it is a great school, both of our boys did really well from it and I still feel when I see the students from there around town that there seems to be a greater number of them looking smart and with a sense of purpose then from some of the other local schools. I do take issue with your hundreds of students getting all 9s though! I think the confusion between your pass rate stats and JoJoSM2s is that you are looking at the pass rate for grade 4 and above which is about 92-93% at the school whereas the link looks at only grade 5 and above for English and Maths which is about 80%. Those figures from 2019 also look like a drop on previous years, if I cared enough I would look up some previous year comparisons and also look at other schools for 2019 as I suspect others will have similarly dropped but I'm afraid I don't think I care enough to do so!

www.compare-school-performance.service.gov.uk/find-a-school-in-england

According to the above, just shy of 543k pupils sat GCSEs in state schools in 2019.

Oblomov - here's a screenshot from the BBC... Dfe stats also available. That Schools Week article is really badly written... The 4.1 million figure refers to total entries not students (and it actually 4.5 million according to other sources).

Without being rude - do you think there are 300-350 million people in the UK? That would be the extrapolated population figure from your stat.

When I was at private school there was a small amount of disruption. Talking to DH (quite good state school), I think he had more disruption - but I don’t think it’s a huge surprise as they had bigger classes. I think DH liked his school years but didn’t feel v stretched. I enjoyed my time.

Both of us are nerdy, so disruption was irritating. Also a culture that being studious was uncool at both our schools - at least I was on a couple of sports teams...

Schools private and state are so variable and also different children suit different places. I do worry that in general the level of discipline over here is not very high though.

When you’re spending thousands on your child’s education, you are more invested in their education
That is by no means a universal truth.

I work in an HMC minor public school. The kids behave like hooligans. My point is that it all depends on the individual school, not the sector.