Which is best for Engineering Degree 3 A levels or 4?

I would add that if a student is strong mathematically further maths and maths don't equate to two A-levels worth of work. For a student who is taking further maths at a push it could be a stressful two years.

I would also add that for students who are last minute crammers A-levels can be a shock. For GCSEs a fairly bright student can get away with a little last minute revision. A-level tends to be the time where this runs out as it's not enough to understand the basic facts they need practise applying it in order to develop fluency. For maths in particular revision mainly compromises doing lots and lots of practise which can't happen last minute.

If he starts 4 A levels, will the school still allow him to do an EPQ as well. EPQ stands for Extended Project Qualification, so I should think this is what the school means by project. It is worth up to 28 points (half an A level). It is new to me as dd has just started Y12, but from what I can make out, a lot of the points go for how the students plan and organise it, as much as what they finally produce. Hence it could help your ds build the skills he needs for University study.

If he can start by doing 4 and an EPQ, this may be best for first term of year 12 at least. A levels are different from GCSE. Though they are harder, with an extra year of maturity and being able to do subjects they actually like, he may settle into study more; this happened with DD. If he starts with 4 and an EPQ he can then drop either the EPQ or an A level if he wants, so his options will be wider.

Dd chose to do 4 (one of which is FM) and an EPQ. So far she is enjoying it and is coping with the workload, but chose to do this with the knowledge she can drop something.

FM is the hardest of her A levels. She often does not get things until she has been through it for the second or third time. However, I would think it is a quite good A level if your ds wants to do engineering at a top uni.

Yes i can see with medicine thst work experience would be preferable.

I think it must depend on the subject Trewser. For medicine and biomedical sciences we were told that they don't care about D of E. Medicine wanted work /volunteering experience as an extra. Boomed just wanted good grades.

From the perspective of a parent of someone doing four, I think it would be a risk based on what you've said about his approach to learning. Four A levels doesn't just mean 25% more work, it also means having far fewer study/free periods during school hours. They have to be disciplined and keep working when their friends are playing about in the common room. If he's keen on engineering Maths/FM/Physics plus some supra curricular engineering sounds like a good option.

I'm not sure about d of e. I know a few dcs with Gold and of the two i know (tiny sample!) who were interviewed, both were asked about it, both got good low offers.

Interesting. What about applicants whose schools don't allow a fourth 'fun' a level? No state school near me would encourage that or allow it.

DoE etc. not useful for applications

Having sat through countless subject talks at several universities I concur. Universities are far more interested in academic achievement, and in some cases work/volunteering experience than D of E.

I'm not sure that maths & FM count as 2

It does for engineering, but doesn’t for medicine.

But would poss 3 As be better than say AABB

Yes, definitely. This has also been pointed out at university subject talks. Even medical schools only want 3 A levels, but they must each have a minimum of an A grade.

As an employer i actually prefer those who have done something a little different as a 4th subject - arts based is preferable

Interestingly, at the medicine subject talk at York we were told the same, by the admissions tutor as it showed breadth of education.

Best A Levels? I work with schools and my family is full of Engineers so here it goes!

There is a difference in what you need at each stage from the first glance at your Application in an Engineering Admissions Team to you proudly picking up your Master Degree with Distinction after four years of study. The most important consideration is what aptitudes, knowledge and skills you will need to actually do the academic and practical work well and be a successful student, whether it’s for a BEng in Ship Science at Southampton or a combined BA and MEng in Information Engineering at Cambridge.

The Admissions people will look at your GCSEs - your ‘top eight’ – and your prospective A Level s in the context of your school, your school’s performance, your family background and your wider CV. Generally, the more Maths and the higher the level of Maths, the better. Physics is important, too. The more you offer from these three subjects, the more comfortable the Admissions people will feel. But do not rule out Design Tech or Chemistry, either. Chemistry is obviously vital for Chemical Engineering. ….So, three of Maths, Further Maths, Physics, Chemistry and Design Tech are fine.
Clearly, some courses at some universities are especially competitive. For example, Engineering at Cambridge is particularly tough because of it’s Cambridge, because the teaching term is only 8 weeks (10 or 11 weeks is normal), the volume of work is vast and the depth and breadth per module are immense and they go at a fast pace. Oh, and they recruit on the basis that you will last the pace for 4 years, right the way to your Masters degree. … Yet the 3 A Levels of Maths, Further Maths and Physics are fine if, overall, you show enough potential, including contributions from your written Admissions Assessments and tutorial-style Interviews. Some Cambridge colleges will offer AAA while others will offer AAA plus STEP Maths. You can get in with 3 A Levels and be turned out with 5, all 5 at A* grades.

But this is not for everyone and there are fine Engineering courses at many universities.
It really is about the individual’s esoteric overall strength in the context of their circumstances and, of course, the competition that year. For example, your Year 12 Maths could be pants but you just won a National Engineering Competition; that gets you in the frame just about everywhere and the university’s final decision may rest on how they feel they will support you if your Maths really is a bit weak or if they sense that you can do much better but your attitude is a bit casual. In real life, rockets land on the moon safely and come back in one piece and bridges remain standing in extreme weather because of sound higher level Maths; fortunately, talented, creative professional Design Engineers have equally talented Engineering Mathematicians working with them in the same large team.

I would also add, that as part of a team doing admissions for an Oxford college, albeit over 5 years ago now , if you're applying for a top, very academic university in which you'll have interviews and exams (STEP, MAT, PAT etc). You are much better off doing the minimum number of A-levels required and learning those subjects to a very high level than adding on extra subjects. (By learning to a high level I mean in depth learning not learning material beyond the syllabus). Don't take an extra subject which will prevent you having time to practise STEP papers, do Maths Olympiad etc. Likewise for Oxford at least in STEM subjects don't worry about playing football or the violin etc just know your subject inside out.

Certainly maths, further maths and Physics as you say. Would he consider Computing? Very useful not only for his degree in engineering where he'll need to code but also for job prospects in the future.

4 is good for the top universities but only if he can cope. Dd did 4 last year and got her grades required but doing 4 and then getting a lower grade won't help

Echo the advice to think about what type of engineering. He'll need chemistry (I should think) for chemical (obv!) but also things like materials engineering.

If he does a general eng degree he Mya not be have full choice of options without chemistry. That might not be a problem if he isn't interested in those, bit just something to consider.

I'm an Oxford engineering graduate, and did maths, chemistry and physics. No further maths (dropped history after as-level). I know entrance requirements have changed, but just to say in the first year our maths syllabus was basically further maths and I had no problem learning it then. Obviously it was a bit of a doss for those with FM, but I wouldn't overload at A-level unnecessarily.

Ds is currently studying Mech Eng at a RG uni. He did maths, Further maths and physics for A level. His offer was AAA and he got AAB (B was in FM) and was still accepted.

Surely lots of schools don't even let you sit 4 A Levels these days ... (DC's school doesn't since the harder A Levels can in). So there is no way that universities can discriminate against those that only have 3 A Levels rather than 4, 5 ...

On the personality type I'd go for 4 - he'd be just as likely to fly by seat of pants on 3 and the challenge of 4 might get him motivated rather than "3 is easy for me, I'll be fine".

OP out of interest, is he leaning towards any particular branch of engineering?

I'm a doubly chartered engineer working for a leading design practice. I did Maths, Further Maths, Physics and AS Chem and got a first from a top 3 uni. However, chem wasn't really a choice; i was left with not many options in the 4th 'stream' as there was only one combination which allowed M/FM/P.

As an employer i actually prefer those who have done something a little different as a 4th subject - arts based is preferable. In my line of work i need staff who are technically brilliant with a solid grounding in maths/science but crucially a problem solving, creative mind. I also need them to work well with others in design based teams and be able to communicate with our clients, and eventually enough business acumen to be running projects/divisions.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that if he's not wedded to Chem then another subject might be refreshing and not hold him back later on.

I do agree that whilst FM is not essential, it will make the first few years at uni a hell of a lot easier!

Lastly...personal gripe...but there's no such thing as a 'typical engineer'. We're a broad church and trying to get an even better mix of people. Some of the best i know are as far from the stereotype as its possible tp get!

Some MN users have outdated info, in the past few years the status of FM has changed from add-in to a proper A level in its own right.

DS is like your son, he got 8s for maths and sciences without much revision. Wants to do engineering.

The college he goes to were very clear that he’s better off doing 3 A levels and getting top results than doing 4. Some do 4, but it is not a requirement anywhere.

They recommended he does Maths, Further maths and Physics and an “extension in engineering”

The engineering gets you no UCAS points but is fun (they re designing a moon lander) and they do fun school trips, and it counts as evidence (for want of a better word) of genuine interest in engineering, and then they can talk about engineering at the interview with a bit more knowledge)

They get a few kids into Cambridge etc. every year, and other good uni’s, despite being a state 6th form college in a quite poor/deprived area.

Talk to your college/6th form/school to confirm the above.

DS is in his first year at college, really enjoys the above subjects and is working much harder now

I went to Oxford as did my DH and many of our friends. None of us have four A-Levels. Ex did Engineering at Oxford, 3 As (this was before the A*) in Maths, Physics and Chemistry. Oxbridge look for potential, not the number of A-Levels completed.

DD is hoping to go to Cambridge, she'll be doing 3 plus EPQ.

But I’m not working at a uni... just a parent.

If he doesn’t work that hard, I think 3 is better - he might be able to concentrate and get A* grades.

Top uni prof here - advise him to start with 4, drop one if necessary. What he needs and what counts are the best 3, but subject choice and performance in fourth can sometimes decide between otherwise similar applicants. His school should give him advice on this!