11plus

But you accept that it is less likely that a viable top set doing the most demanding courses will be present if a selective school is down the road, simply because there will be fewer high ability pupils in the non-grammar school?

It is a numbers game, in the end - and the same applies to teachers best able to teach those most able children - as a teacher who enjoys that particular challenge, would you tend to apply to work in a school with 5-10% high ability children, or one with 50%+?

cantkeepawayforever,

Ideology aside, I don’t think that for an individual child it matters whether there’s a selective school down the road as long as their own school is good and able to stretch them + has top sets doing the more demanding courses at a high level.

I do, however, completely understand the point that not knowing whether the OP lives near Kent, or a similar fully grammar system, with 20-25% of children in grammars, or an area with a tiny number of grammars, does change the profile of children in the grammars.

JoJo,

Nothing you have said changes the basic point - that a non-grammar in a grammar system has an profile of attainment different from that of a comprehensive school within a comprehensive system.

Yes, non grammars will have SOME higher attainers. However, because the grammars take more of the higher attainers, the non-grammars will, by definition, have fewer.

My DCs attended a non-grammar in a partially grammar system - a very good, very high attaining, 'almost comp'. However, some of the Y6s who lived in the surrounding area and would have gone there in a true comprehensive system did not, and instead went to grammars. However many HA children were left, it was still fewer than the proportion of those children within the effective catchment, if that makes sense?

In our old area (a London grammar) the grammar's intake was from around 400 schools with the girls and boys schools taking in 360 a year between them so less than 1 child per primary school. Plenty of bright children going to the comprehensives. The grammar DD went to was also around 90% Asian (7 white kids out of 180) with lots of parents of white bright kids not entering their kids - we did but were very much in the minority and we got many comments of why were we sending DD to an Asian school. The comprehensives there were nothing like secondary moderns. In an area of lots of grammars its different but we are currently in a fully comprehensive area and intake is very similar to a comprehensive in old area. I suspect private intake is higher here.

@cantkeepawayforever I never said that. I said there are plenty of high achievers in the non-selective schools.

Don’t really get the ‘true comprehensive area’ argument if you’re saying the non-grammars in the new area are good enough.

JoJo,

So are you saying that the % of HA coming up from primary is identical in the grammars and non-grammars in your area?

Are you sure?

@cantkeepawayforever

You don’t know where the OP is moving. I’m in a grammar area (5 grammars and 9 non-grammars in my LA) and there are plenty of high attainers to go round. The non-grammars have GCSE pass rates mostly considerably above the national average.

So is he is a comp now and you were hoping to move and for him to get a place in a grammar rather than a comp?

Probably better written as:
"So he is at a true comprehensive now, and you were hoping to move and for him to get a place in the grammar rather than the secondary modern"

Just making the obvious point that comprehensives in non-grammar areas are different from the 'other school in a grammar system', which by definition will lack its proper proportion of higher attainers....

The 'ability peers' of a bright child in a comprehensive in a fully comprehensive area WILL often be in the grammar school in a grammar area.

It's very much not an exact science, but I would say that most of those who pass comfortably around here without major cramming score 120+ in CATs. But there are always some who score lower and pass, and some who score higher and don't. As others have said, the issue for you may be more likely to be the lack of an available space, plus the competition with other applicants on score for any space that comes up (if that's how it works in your local grammars), than whether or not your DC would have passed first time round.

So is he is a comp now and you were hoping to move and for him to get a place in a grammar rather than a comp?

OP, are the non-selective schools in the area you’re looking at not good? Have you spoken to the Local Authority there?

Places at DD’s grammar are even more competitive for an in-year place. Places rarely come up and when they do there are a significant number sitting a test for the one place and the highest scoring gets the place. You are competing with those who’ve been in independents, expats returning home, other grammars etc.

My DD went to a London grammar, not sure of CATS results but almost every child there had 3 x 120 at SATS. Very few places come up after September of year 7, one a year maybe and lots after it.

Some grammar schools are more selective than others. The very selective ones normally have very few children leaving. There's an 11 plus forum website which has details of individual schools.

JoJo - that's similar to those i am aware of - those moving into the area cannot even sit a test unless and until a place arises. If there is no place, then the child is kept on a list to be summoned to a test should a place arise in the future.

While in-year applications may be different elsewhere, it's probably worth planning for a move to a location where the 'non-grammar' alternative is acceptable in the short to medium term in case no place is available - and in the longer term if the child fails to be of high enough standard to join the grammar. The standard for in-year applicants may well be higher than for standard Y7 applicants.

My experience is with South London grammars and places for in-year applicants are very rare so 99% of children moving over during secodary go to one of the comps. If a place does arise, candidates sit a test and the best one gets in provided they’re good enough.

So this is not for the 11+, but for an in-year application for a grammar school after a move?

That changes the goalposts a lot - you need to look very closely at the in-year application procedures for the schools in the area that you are moving to.

The test may well not be the standard 11+, or even of a similar type or format.

Not a grammar area but my daughter is in a selective grammar.

We did no tutoring or practise papers but reasoning was standard in her primary curriculum.

Your son’s score wouldn’t have been enough to pass for her school/the boys’ school the year DD entered.

My son passed the 11+ following a review, all his scores were 120+ and he was borderline. Very minimal tutoring just to get to grips with the exam format. This was the beginning of year 6 for Trafford.

@oneboy3girls What is it that you’re hoping to hear?