DH and I don't agree on secondary school

Back on the subject of schools...

@WillowSummerSloth It looks like your kids (two of them at least) and you have already been won over by the private school route, but maybe if your eldest doesn't have a particular preference one way or another - you shoukd start him off in a state school with the option to change to private any time depending on how it goes?

Although my parents (who have gone the private school route for my brother and state school route for me) have said that the only money they never regretted spending was on education. But there are big differences between private schools... My brother's school was in Germany and the kids there were quite special. He is still close friends with many if his classmates and they have all gone on to have phomenal careers (his best friend from school is an engineer in Hamilton's team for example and my brother is currently doing his Phd and teaching at Harvard having graduated from Cambridge). In this case, I can see private education really being worth it.

However, in my daughter's case of a private North London prep - I really don't see anything specially about it except huge pressure on young kids.

It all depends on the school.

Thsts my point. If she knew which I'm sure she does that she can afford it,why state figures.?? Why mention 3 holidays a year? It bears no relevance to anything. I was raised not to flaunt what I have as there are those with less,it seems like she has not been taught this.

She’s only stated their salary on affordability grounds & she has hardly made a big deal about their holidays. Quite honestly, this all does rather say more about you than the OP. You have read this as boasty but I’m pretty sure the rest of us haven’t.

Neither is necessary to be stated.she could have just said she has the means for either education. certainly her numbering her holidays per year is irrelevant.

Not sure that’s particularly fair. She’s stated their annual income and that they like to take holidays. What they choose to do with their income is surely their own business seeing as they’ve worked for it?

Seems like you seem to enjoy bragging about money and holidays a bit too much.

Is it going to be you or DH running around and sorting out all these out of school tutoring opportunities if they go to state school etc?

The OP is considering working 5 days a week rather than 3.5 days to afford private school fees. These things take rather less than 1.5 days a week (and if her DC go to the local school extra-curricular may not take any extra running round at all, as they can simply make their own arrangements).

Is it going to be you or DH running around and sorting out all these out of school tutoring opportunities if they go to state school etc?

You need to treat your children fairly, and be able demonstrate them as adults that you did this.

However, fairly does not mean the same as equally.

So for each one, choose the school, out of those that are realistic financially and geographically, where you believe they will be happiest and will achieve the most, and be prepared to change this if this changes.

This may end up being the same school for all of your children, different for all or a combination in-between. You might narrow this by saying they will all go private or state, or you might not.

If your younger children end up needing a different type of education, (E.g. to pursue a talent or to support an as-yet unknown needs), you would not necessarily be giving them the best for them at the time they go to secondary if you insist on them having what is currently best for your eldest.

There are other threads running where a new headteacher has completely changed a school's ethos, so you could be doing your younger children a huge disservice by making decisions for them now as schools can change significantly in a relatively short period of time.

I think you could afford private on your income, Willow, but you must understand that bad behaviour, fighting, disruption etc, all happen in private schools too. My son went to a very good one and there were lots of shenanigans :-). I will say that private schools come down hard on pupils who really behave badly, even expelling if it's that bad.

Have a good look at the secondary school your husband favours, there are some great ones. We have grammar schools nearby that are good. However I do feel your son should have a say, children have good instincts about schools so please go to open days with him.

If you have three sons, do look at schools which are co-ed. Speaking as a teacher, there is a huge emphasis at university level on widening intake. It is generally easier to get offered places at Russell Group/Oxbridge/Medical School from state schools. You will also have the money to invest in private tutors which can be hugely beneficial.

Our private school sold us a bogie, it looked perfect for ds1, we were so impressed by what we saw but it failed our son. He had to leave due to bullying after 3 years and it has had a very negative impact on his further schooling. Or ds2. Goes to the local comp, on the face of it terrible catchment, failing school but he is thriving. And is set to achieve top grades.
So don't always believe the hype, pick the school which will be best for your child, speak to staff, other parents and senior pupils.

GrandMoff Those are all fair comments and as someone with a child at an outstanding comp I don't think she's disadvantaged against those at privates so I wouldn't expect her to get more favourable offers. And certainly kids at state grammars shouldn't be getting contextualised offers.

But I'm often struck on these threads that people tell us how much better their kids' private school was than the state they would have gone to but then seem to find it terribly unfair that universities, and indeed some employers, might try and compensate for this. It just seems inconsistent to me.

That should say off piste not off lists ,

Difficult decision , we have put three through independent albeit that the middle one went to an independent special school . The aim was never better exam results but a broader more fulfilling education . I always wanted the exam results to a by product and not s purpose if the education . We also wanted excellent pastoral care and a smaller school ( still 1000 so not tiny) where they knew all the teachers and the teachers knew them . I think schools have become too big children are just a crowd a rabble and I do think this is contributing to the mental health crisis in our young people . In other countries they have huge secondaries/ high schools but they have much better resources with school counsellors and such like .

My youngest in particular is very academic and would probably have got just as good results at the outstanding state school but his contemporary there have been made to take hundreds of exams ( 12 GCSEs and compulsory 4 A levels ) to get their league table results . ds has stuck with fewer exams and done sport, drama music and has more time for each subject where they can go off lists etc .

So I would say don’t just look at exam results look at the ethos and pastoral care that suits your child . That may be state or independent .

Frida there can never be 'proof' of whether private school is worth it, partly because what you might be getting out of it is quite nebulous, and partly because you can never know how your child would have done at another school. In our case, as I've just said, we were lucky enough to have the choice between two very academic schools. I have no doubt that DS would do as well academically at the grammar, and might well end up in the same university course and job. So what do we think we get out of the independent? Various things, some more tangible than others. First, an education that is academic, and co-ed, and non-faith (round here in the state schools you can easily get one of the three, sometimes two but certainly not all three). Secondly, a freedom from targets and curriculum constraints. The school is free (at least in the first couple of years before public exams) to teach the children what it thinks they ought to learn. Not a whisper about GCSE targets and flightpaths and assessment. The curriculum is creative, and varied, and challenging, and DS comes home every day genuinely inspired by what he's learning. Thirdly, the quality of the teaching and the quality of the relationship with the teaching staff. There is low staff turnover, the teachers have the resources and the time to do their jobs properly, everything is taught by subject specialists (including the vast majority of cover lessons) and the small class sizes mean they build up not only close but also relaxed relationships with their students (because they have a relatively small number of kids to get to know and because behaviour problems are practically non-existent). Fourthly, the incredible range of extra curricular activities coupled with the flexibility of the school day (they can potentially be on campus 7am-8pm if they need to) means that DS can get involved in whatever he likes, and the fact that we both work and cannot transport him around the place after school does not impact on that.

None of that is really measurable. All I know is that he is very, very happy. Perhaps he would have been equally happy at another school - I cannot know that.

@GrandMoff You are exactly right. On another thread on here there was a list of schools Bristol offer contextual offers to and it was crazy. Comps in really deprived areas are not on that list, but schools like Fortisemere and Camden Girls are! Or schools like Dame Alice Owen get get contextual offers. That's not making it a fair playing field for the poor exceptional kid in a struggling school

HPFA Re contextualised offers, I think there are two issues. The first is that parents don't necessarily pay for private schools to achieve better results, they're often paying for other stuff - so they might not think a potential 'handicap' on required grades is fair. Of course you could argue that the other 'stuff' is just as important at boosting chances of getting into uni, so a handicap is still fair. Secondly, it depends how nuanced the contextualisation is. In our case, we chose an independent (on a bursary) over a SS grammar. If DS were 'handicapped' vs a child on free school meals who went to an underperforming comp in a deprived area, I would have zero problem with that. However, if he was 'handicapped' vs a child who went to prep school and was intensively tutored in order to get a place at the SS grammar where a large percentage come from private primaries, then yes I would be peeved. I don't think that's how contextualisation works, but a lot of parents think it is.

Bright but slightly lazy - don’t bother to spend a fortune on private fees. He’ll coast and they’ll be happy to get good enough grades. If he’s somewhere else he’ll probably get the same grades or be inspired to try harder as he might be recognised as bright and benefit from that. I have 3 children, brightest is the laziest and got the worst grades at GCSE & A Level.

@WillowSummerSloth I think that’s the best idea! Like you, we’d got fixed completely into 2 camps, me on getting DD into Grammar and DH on the local Comp literally down the road (as he did and thrived despite living in a decidedly rough area - I wasn’t at all keen having heard numerous stories of bullying). We’re both graduates and like your situation, of the two of us career wise he has done better! We’re all really happy with how the compromise solution has worked out, DD seems to be making friends, has joined numerous clubs, is in the top sets and appears to be being pushed. It has involved a long commute for her (50 minutes each way on a direct bus) - going back to basics meant widening the scope which did unfortunately mean for us a bigger geographical area. I would agree with the PP who has said as you both work and have 3 DC, keep it to the schools that DS can reach by himself unless you want all 3 to go there. It is a faff going through lots of data stats, admissions policies and scholarship particulars but you’ve got a year and time.

I would go state and move at 13 if it's not working out.

TheHumans If DH and I are trying to decide whether an option for something is even viable, we don't include the DC in that discussion. They are only included as and when the option is ruled in as possible.

So it isn't surprising to me that the DS hasn't been involved up to now, as they haven't worked out whether they as the adults are happy paying 3 lots of school fees.

At £12k per yer I would choose private. Keep the lump sum for the years all 3 of them are there.

Could you downsize your house? Also I would increase your hours, if not now in a few years time.

You need to seriously budget. What exactly do you spend your money on now £ by £ and where could you save money. Spend a huge amount on food and drink? Reduce that, look at less expensive holidays, less on gifts and so on.

You have enough wiggle room to not take a massive hit on lifestyle and still afford it. Start now to save up £14k in a year, how can you do it? You have nearly 2 years to save up a minimum of 2 years fees and see the reality of living on a reduced income.

Can he go state until A level the private for A level?