DH and I don't agree on secondary school

@Ineedaholidayplease wow.....this is the exact reason that state grammar schools should be means tested!
Parents whom could most likely afford private education by cutting back on lavish lifestyles....taking a place at a school that was ultimately set up to give chances to the children who are financially less fortunate but bright enough to compete with the private sector really irritates me.

Interesting point. For my last DC I turned down a grammar school place in favour of a selective independent school. I thought the grammar school would offer more academic competition, which would be good, and the DC in question would have been socially equally happy at either, but the independent school did offer more sport and I knew they prioritised pastoral care, and longer holidays which are important for us for visiting overseas relatives. One of the deciding things for me was that I knew I could make that choice, but if we turned down the grammar school place, someone else would be really happy to have it. It was a tough call and I still don't know if I made the right choice. The difficult thing is, the same decision is likely to come up for the younger DC next year. But now there seems to be so much hate directed against people who've been to private school in some quarters and so many misapprehensions about what it actually is like, that youngest will probably go to the grammar school so we don't have to deal with that negativity.

I agree with @Rittyrib, @XelaM and @titchy . Universities are primarily interested in your grades and other stuff is only relevant insofar as you can use it to show that you're a good fit for the course. Here's an extract from a Telegraph article a few years back:
"Sixth formers have long been advised that playing the harp or captaining the school chess team could persuade admissions tutors to award them that elusive university spot. But the suggestion that non-academic pursuits could make any difference to pupils' applications is a myth, according to Mike Nicholson, director of undergraduate admissions at Oxford.

Mr Nicholson said students would be better off devoting more time to their studies than trying to bolster their personal statements through charity work or Duke of Edinburgh awards...Mr Nicholson told the Times Educational Supplement: "It really doesn't matter if you haven't got any friends or hobbies or if you don't do any charitable work ...[Acceptance] is a purely academic judgement."

He said universities were only interested in "enthused, engaged and excellent" candidates, rather than "second-rate historians who happen to play the flute".

Current advice from Oxford is:
"Tutors at Oxford are only interested in your academic ability and potential. They want to see that you are truly committed to the subject or subjects you want to study at university but it’s not enough just to say that you have a passion for something: you need to show tutors how you have engaged with your subject, above and beyond whatever you have studied at school or college. This can include any relevant extra-curricular activities...There’s a myth that Oxford is looking for the most well-rounded applicants, and that you will only be offered a place if you have a long list of varied extra-curricular activities. In fact, extra-curricular activities are only helpful in so far as they demonstrate the selection criteria for your course.

If you are applying to other universities as well as to Oxford (you can make five choices on your UCAS form) then you may need to find out whether the other universities have different selection criteria. If they do, then you might want to provide some information about your extra-curricular interests – but keep it to a minimum. The space in your personal statement is limited, so think carefully about what you want to include.

Do I need experience of work and travel?
We understand that not everyone has the opportunity to do work experience or to go travelling so these activities are not a requirement for any of our courses. Tutors won’t be impressed by your connections, or the stamps in your passport, but they will be impressed by how you’ve engaged with your subject."

I doubt very much that many admissions tutors are bothered about your physical fitness.

Most medical schools don't read the PS. Ever. Not do a lot of vet schools. And the speed of some responses show that a lot of RG Unis don't read for many subjects.

wow.....this is the exact reason that state grammar schools should be means tested!
Parents whom could most likely afford private education by cutting back on lavish lifestyles....taking a place at a school that was ultimately set up to give chances to the children who are financially less fortunate but bright enough to compete with the private sector really irritates me.

I was agreeing with titchy, sorry reading back I can see the potential for confusion! I was saying, 'I see, Titchy, we are dealing with a repeated peddler of nonsense'

Ah I see Titchy, a repeat peddler of nonsense.

@Ribbityrib you've confused me. Are you agreeing with titchy, Stanley, or neither?

I agree with your husband. Spend the money on educational trips and experiences.

An elevated sense of importance I suspect, and an expert mansplainer

Ah I see Titchy, a repeat peddler of nonsense. Yes, those pesky geeky admissions tutors, caring more about a prospective history student spending their summer reading about the war of the roses than about their Tibetan llama dressage skills.

More seriously, I do find it depressing how many teachers still believe that lists of random extra-curriculars are a necessity to a good PS, and that Oxbridge college admissions tutors really give a stuff whether or not an applicant will be able to play cricket for the college.

RG unis don'tjust look at predicted grades, usually, (though I have come across some geeky admissions tutors who ONLY care about predicted grades. But they are rare.)

this again Stanley. The vast majority of Admissions tutors at RG ONLY care about predicted grades. The few that are interested in the contents of the PS want evidence of RELEVANT extra curriculars - would-be medics working in a care home, would-be English students reading far wider than the A Level set texts for example.

(Stanley's secrecy is his self-published book on how to get into top universities despite being an oik...)

Or is it lay of the land?!

I am an expert, and as an admissions tutor it is definitely not just lists of shiny extra-curricular baubles that will get someone admitted to a top university. Extra-curricular engagement does matter but it categorically doesn't need to be fancy - working in the local supermarket counts, and subject-related extra reading and evidence of enthusiasm doesn't need a fancy private school - it could just happen in the local library. Private schools are definitely better at knowing the lie of the land, but you really don't need to spend 100k on access to private school extra-curricular facilities in order to write a storming personal statement.

Incidentally, most admissions tutors are geeky pretty much by definition...

What are the posting rules that are forbidding you to say more? Do you mean keeping confidentiality?

I'm no expert in this, but from my own experience, a good personal statement is not one that lists endless extra-curricular activities, but one that is personal to that child and really makes his personality stand out.

@RedskyToNight is talking sense.

RG unis don'tjust look at predicted grades, usually, (though I have come across some geeky admissions tutors who ONLY care about predicted grades. But they are rare.)

Private schools more or less guarantee that the students personal statement will be bursting with all the stuff RG unis look for: evidence of responsibility, great study skills, individual development, physical fitness, etc, etc.

In the state sector it takes particularly switched on form teachers, and/or parents to ensure that their charges are doing all the stuff their peers in the private sector are doing to match them when it comes to application and interview.

You sound like switched on parents so you probably will not have a problem with this if your DCs stay in the state sector but there may be other readers of this thread who do not know where the line of responsibility for the content of the personal statement comes from. Private schools have this in their DNA, state schools can have this but it can be patchy. In the end it is a joint effort and all parties should play their part. I personally was given the elite tutor group (6th form form) as I specialised in this, my public school background having helped me. Which proves that a switched on form teacher can make all the difference and ensure bright state school students get into RG unis. Posting rules forbid me from saying more on this.

I also don't think that "they can do all the extra-curricular activities" at school is necessarily a plus point of private schools. For a start the range of extra-curricular activities offered is necessarily less than everything a DC might wish to do. Secondly, a huge plus point of extra-curricular activities is that the DC get to meet a different set of people to the ones they spend every day at school with.

With respect, if you work part time but can find the time to go on 'long runs' during the day, you could probably up your work hours to help pay for the private education you want for your DC?

As well as looking at what the schools themselves, offer, look at what's available in your local community. Also think about time spent commuting, etc. The right answer probably depends a lot on your area.

DD is in a good state comprehensive, her cousins in private. Their school offers vastly more in the way of musical and other opportunities - everything is there within the school. On the other hand, DD is home by 3.30, belongs to two local musical groups (one of which is a type rarely available in schools), learns two instruments and an extra language out of school. In some ways she has a wider choice of opportunities (but this might be different in a more rural area, of course), but we have to do a bit more to facilitate that.

I was also amused by someone's comment on their kids versus the neighbours' kids. Both sets came out of primary with similar results, one family went private, the other to the comp. They finished with similar exam results, but the private school family had done a lot more homework on the way!

the problem is that you will only know whether your choices were good in about twenty years time! You just have to go with your gut on a child by child basis.

If you've got £110k and annual fees are £12k then even if both the older two kids go, it'll be at least 5 years before you have to dip into your won pockets to pay fees? And as DS1 is only in year 5, you'd have 7 years to get some specific savings going. Alternatively you remortgage in 7 years time to extend the term.

Personally I'd always go for the great school rather than the ok school. Has your dh been to all the open days at the state option? How are the results at GCSE and A level? Are they comparable to the school he went to and loved?

If you're really stuck, then is there a better state option you could both agree on? You still have time to relocate?

Sounds like it would be a strain to put all 3 in private from 11... maybe if state wasn’t working out at 13, you could consider switching, or 6th form. Or save the money for uni/post-grad.

But I would be careful about the bright ds who had a tendency to be lazy. It might be easier to coast at some state schools as the class sizes are bigger, and also might get sucked into the low level disruption. On the other hand hyper competitive private/grammar schools can also be damaging for anxious, perfectionist kids.

My husband and I also disagreed about schools. In the end, this just gave our son the casting vote. He chose a grammar with a great swimming pool. He's Y11 now and still bright & lazy. No school's going to change that.

Willow, I haven't seen you brag - you've just stated facts.

Nothing to add except I 'like' what StanleySteamer says above.

Hope all goes well whatever you decide.

Look at the final destinations of the students from both the state and the private schools you are considering. Factor in the fact that the private schools will be selective, then decide. Some private schools are not as successful as you might expect and some state schools get brilliant results.
I was privately educated myself but spent my working life teaching in a state school. Many of my 6th formers got into Russell Group universities.

If you have a good state school near you, save your money, ensure you top up any lackings in the state school with tutors and ensure you have the money to help them all get through uni. If the local state schools are rubbish, spend your money on private education, but you don't need to stick with the local ones, One's where they may need to board may well be better. My four-pennorth.

Your youngest 2 are far too young for their opinions to be taken into consideration. They would be unable to see beyond shiny facilities and things that looked "fun". I really would just focus on your oldest and what suits him, and not worry about your other two - actually I'll caveat that; if you pick a school that will mean your other 2 have to go there because of logistics, you need to balance that out carefully.