DH and I don't agree on secondary school

Caring about skiing holidays at the expense of your kids education seems odd me. The sacrifices you'd have to made don't seem huge to be honest.

Achievement breeds achievement. If you have the tools (intelligence, creativity, determination, work ethic, curiosity) to succeed in one field you will tend to apply them to both academic and extracurricular pursuits. And of course they feed on each other, which is why the current state school squeeze on the creative arts is so damaging. But categorically, Oxbridge care exclusively about academic attainment. (In a past life I did admissions interviews at both unis).

@madeyemoodysmum, with respect, Labour are as yet to announce their manifesto. Ending the charitable status of Private Schools came up at the Conference but in terms of actual real Election pledges, this hasn’t been included. What has are reducing Class sizes and ending University fees - both good things surely? A lot of nonsense & scare mongering is drummed up in the press about Labour and in particular Jeremy Corbyn. Let’s stick to the actual facts.

@Blouseandskirt I am not disputing you are right , but it is nevertheless surprising when time and again people who are high achievers sports wise or drama wise turn out to be at Oxbridge. I suppose it is just that if you are a high achiever in one field you are likely to be a high achiever in another. Or maybe early success in your chosen field gives you more confidence.

BubblesBuddy I have now attended 4 admissions talks at Oxford and Cambridge and all have been emphatic: they are interested in grades, grades, grades and the results of their aptitude tests. At interview they are interested in depth and breadth of engagement with the subject and approach / thinking style. They were all emphatic that they do not care about any non-subject related extra curricular, or the personal statement, except as a conversation starter at interview.

Do you honestly think an Astro-physics don cares two hoots about the rowing team? And will sacrifice a place for an undergraduate in their world leading research department because if their ability in badminton or fencing?

I spend a bit of my working life in an Oxford College. It just doesn’t happen.

Granted DD (11) is at a school (State) with a Performing Arts specialism but they have 6 Choirs, Drama Clubs, a Lamda Club (with specialist outside Tutor), a Creative Writing Club, a Song Writing Club, dance studio and a host of dance clubs, recording studio and on site theatre. There is also specialist tuition for Singing & a whole range of musical instruments. Outside the Arts, Clubs range from an Equestrian Club through to Amnesty International. I appreciate all of the above aren’t the norm for every single State school but really extra curricular activities can be as wide and varied in the State sector.

meant ‘ditto for main sports teams’

Redsky I think that reflects in a given private secondary school clustering of talent and ambition (whether driven by parents or DCs) for certain activities like music or popular sports. If you get lots of grade 8 instrumentalists it is not surprising that the main school orchestra is full of them, ditto for schools. Indeed it may be a reason for choosing that school or the opportunity of more advanced repertoire for a talented child. However a good private school provides lots of other opportunities in those activities and a wider spread of other ones.

As elevendollarbills state school provision by necessity has to depend on good will of teachers or what the sixth formers can contribute to the younger years.

“We are used to 3 holidays at least per year/ skiing / weekend breaks etc”

That’s a lot to sacrifice for extra curricular lacrosse, or whatever the ‘amazing ‘ ex-curricular opportunities the private school offers.

I went to private school, my Dc to a state comprehensive, and they are zooming ahead. And as a Pp said, in our circle of friends with families we have known since NCT days, or Reception, they are all getting comparable A level results and heading for the same Unis. It is the 3 who went to the comp throughout who have started at Oxbridge.

By the way this ‘Unis favour state school’ thing is very glibly bandied about. Contextual offers are very tightly defined and do not include children from averagely performing comps and families in averagely comfortable neighbourhoods.

I think once again it comes down to the ethos of the school , my children are at an independent which has a fairly broad intake and is known locally for the breadth of its extra curricular. It also gets very good academic results and value added.

I don’t recognise Redskys description , it’s all
About ‘have a go here’ and even at sixth form there are people just joining in with new activities that they haven’t tried before. Orchestras and ensembles start at beginner level upwards and there are selective choirs but also non selective anyone can join types .

One of ds friends ended up with major part in a drama production after being encouraged to come along rather than just wait in the library for his bus ! Never been in a play , never tried , never thought it would be for him !

I think generally good private schools give more opportunities to just try different activities out with your friends without it being a big deal.

Interestingly (based on comparison with DC's state school versus niece's private school) we've found the opposite. Yes, there are more clubs in total at the private school, but by the time you get further up the school, a lot of them are "competitive" rather than for enjoyment.

For example, DC's school orchestra will pretty much take anyone who can hold an instrument (they have children who started learning this term), whereas you have to be grade 3 standard for private school orchestra; DC's school have lots of "for fun" sports clubs whereas the private school sports clubs are only for DC in school teams.

I think this a point in favour of choosing the school, and not generalising by sector.

sendsummer I think you phrased that perfectly, and that's exactly what we're experiencing. DS is trying all sorts of things we never thought he'd be interested in, and all the clubs very much encourage newcomers to just have a go. Form tutors take a real interest in what each child is doing, they come and watch their plays and performances after school and in the evenings, and it's lovely to watch how supportive and kind the extra curricular staff are - the kids look like they're thoroughly enjoying themselves. I know that state school staff can and do do the same, but it's just so much harder with less time and more pupils.

Although OP the most important factor for a DC will be time with happy parents so if the financial side makes that difficult there has to be a very strong reason to choose private.

I think generally good private schools give more opportunities to just try different activities out with your friends without it being a big deal. Even sometimes to be led into doing something like acting or sport that would be completely outside the DC’s comfort zone but will add to their wider experiences, mental and physical health and autonomy. With that grows the confidence to be braver and happier about taking up opportunities later in life including more stressful situations.

Anything outside school necessarily involves parents and their scrutiny and becomes a commitment. From these threads parents seem to be more and more driven by targets for their DCs including in outside ‘leisure’ activities.

Mixing with people outside school is really important though for perspective on school cliques when socially things are n’t working out.
Or sometime for access to higher level training for a gifted sportsman or musician.

Without any doubt I would save it for uni.
My uni course was pretty much dominated by private school kids (small intake for the course of about 13). They were v confident and stuck together but did no better and in some cases so much worse than me and the other state kids (three of us).
Dd is now at uni and the financial side is stressful - minimal loan and top ups for accommodation, books, travel etc.

Also need to be mindful that Corbyn Hood intends to steal all private schools should they win the election

Will you be able to give all 3 of your children the same opportunity ... at some point they could all be in fee paying schools though the independents may give you a bursary for the following children, if you are prepared to negotiate with them. Remember there are lots of extras at independent schools that are all on top of the fees
and the uniforms which are really expensive, though they may have a second hand shop.

If your child(ren) went to independent, would you continue into sixth form, or would you remove to local state sixth form college? So many independent children, having been spoon fed in small classes are unable to cope at state sixth form and then return to their independent pdq having wasted a year.

Another option, go to the good state school, most children do flourish and gain life schools and consider sixth form in independent so they get those good as poss A levels to enable entrance into one of the top universities.

(For info we took the route of wonderful state primary and secondary schools, though we did look at independents, but were constrained financially at the time, then our daughter went to sixth form at an independent and our son went to the state sixth form ... both at uni and both able to mix and work hard and have fun. Both did a range of sporting and other activities and also we did buy in maths coaching. I sacrificed my career and worked part time and did all the running around and school support etc as partner self emp and 7 days a week.)

Hope useful and good luck and I am sure your children will do marvellously and be grow up to be wonderful human beings due to their lovely parents.

What’s the state school like results wise?

I’m sorry to break it to you but ALL schools will have some level of disruption.

If private wasn’t an option would you be happy with the state school.

If that’s the case I’d be inclined to spend extra on tutors activities as you mentioned.

Btw I agree of course that kids need outside interests. And someone who shows an interest in a wide range of interesting extracurricular activities is by and large more likely to have an inquiring mind than someone who doesn't. But this really doesn't translate into admitting someone because they happen to be a keen hockey player who might be a college blue, rather than because they, say, categorise beetles in their spare time.

"They do care about those sports blues! If you might represent the college or the university and you are super bright, why wouldn’t you get in?"

They really don't! They care about whether you will submit insightful, exciting essays full of original thinking and be a sparky, intellectually engaged person to discuss ideas in tutorials. This is why the admissions process allocates marks for (to take the subject I'm familiar with) your GCSEs, your submitted essay, your aptitude test and your interviews, that will then go into the pot for choosing candidates. Your PS attracts no marks and is merely a source of possible interview discussion. Your aptitude at sport or music may indicate that you strive for excellence and know how to balance your time well - but frankly someone who looks like they are going to spend their time on the rugby pitch rather than the library is more likely to be a negative than a positive, and either way sports ability is exceedingly unlikely to be a deciding factor in whether you get a place.

Academics care primarily about admitting kids who are intellectually able and deeply interested in the subject they want to study. That's it. By and large, they give not a toss about college sports.

I think sports is generally valued BY FAR more in the US. That's where universities really care about you representing them and sports bring money to those colleges. Although as far as I know Ivy League universities don't offer sports scholarships either.

There is always some room for extra hobbies on the PS. Often a hard working gifted person does more than just their specialist subject in their spare time. The brightest will have hobbies and they should be allowed to express what these add to them as a candidate. Often work, work and more work isn’t great for mental health. Oxford should consider how students relax! It’s vital in my view.

Oh yes! They do care about those sports blues! If you might represent the college or the university and you are super bright, why wouldn’t you get in?

I think you need to do a cash flow spreadsheet based on all the years between first one starting and last one leaving. Need to include inflation and all the many extras, plus also add in some £££ towards the non-school trips your children may get invited to such as summer hols or winter trips with their pals abroad. Also remember that either of you might get ill or lose your job at some point over those years, particularly if you're working harder to pay for three lots of fees. Might be a useful exercise to try - but then I do love a spreadsheet!

MaryPeary we made the same choice and I have had some similar experiences. In our case we're on a bursary so actually not very wealthy. I have had a combination of negative comments from people who are anti private schools generally, but also some thinly veiled 'what's someone like you doing at a private school?' responses from people who are far wealthier than us but who have gone to grammars. I wouldn't change my decision though.