DH and I don't agree on secondary school

Wow! Actually Stanley, it was a genuine question. I have no interest in trying to catch anyone out. I have 2 DC with EHCPs in upper KS2, and I am looking at secondary provision. For one of my DS' I am struggling to find something suitable, MS or SS, state or indie. So, I was interested in what area of the country this was in.

The statistics you quote do not state that 33.2% of pupils in MS have EHCPs. They state that of those that have EHCPs 33.2% are in MS.

According to gov.uk, in 2018/19 1.7% of pupils in state MS secondaries have EHCPs.

You may be receiving the responses you are because of how your posts are coming across.

Yeah join in@brokenrecord why not? The school I taught in I retired from in 2015. It may have been 25% it may have been 20% but it was high. Amusing that you join in just to try and catch me out in a detail. But the SEND department was massive. See this
"Findings on the placement of young people with an EHCP:
In 2019, the three largest broad types of provision (aggregated up from sub-groups) are as follows:
33.6% are in state-funded special schools
33.2% are in mainstream provision (not in a resource base or SEN unit)
16.2% are in post-16 institutions. Note that the growth in this type of provision reflects the move from learning difficulty assessments to EHCPs for post-16 students" Quote from www.mimeconsulting.co.uk/dfe-data-release-breakdown-ehcps-in-england/
So if 33.2% are in mainstream provision, then this would be my former school which if I quoted 20% or even 25% would be less than average. As Mark Twain said "there are "lies, there are damned lies and there are statistics" Paraphrased for all you OCD types who want to criticise the exact quote.

@Ribbityrib, I note that you still have not come back to tell us all who the person or people were who helped you when you "had not the faintest clue as to how to apply to university"

But I bet you were grateful to them.

By the way, the fact is that there are two chapters on UCAS, the first one 16 out of 22 is on why it is important to make an early UCAS application and the second one, 17 out of 22 is on the actual application itself. The rest of the book is devoted to what a 16/17/18 yr old from a disadvantaged background needs to do to lay the ground-work for what in the end is the culmination of the previous 2 years, or part of yr 11 as that is when first A level choices are made.

So I didn't lay it on with a trowel as that is where the other books start.

I think some of you, admissions tutors in particular, need to think what it is like being a bright and hardworking 16 year old in a very ordinary school in the UK. It often is not a bed of roses. My book is not for those whose parents can afford to send them to private/independent school, or those who manage to get into a grammar school or into a top comprehensive in some leafy Home Counties town or suburb. This book is not for those who go to Holland Park School, those students don't need it.

I do not know @Ribbityrib's background but from what she said it wasn't all milk and honey either although she may well have come from a deeply caring family. But I get the impression she came from the sort of family that I try to help with my book.

Why, why, why am I being slagged off for this? Why am I being slagged off for using my experience and specialist knowledge to help the disadvantaged get into top unis? Do you think this is somehow unfair? Do you think these poor students ("Oiks" as @titchy calls them) have no business getting into top unis? Do you honestly think no one should try and help them overcome the disadvantages they have through no fault of their own? If you think like this then you are cruel people, who believe that the privileged should continue to be privileged, and their offspring too. To the detriment of students who do not have these advantages.

You will note that I have asked a lot of this type of question in this thread. But I have yet to get answers. This says a lot more about other posters on here than anything else. Some of you obviously resent some retired comprehensive school teacher daring to try to help students from less well-off backgrounds get into top unis.

Lord save us in this country.

At the risk of derailing the thread further than it already has, I would be interested to know what area of the country the state secondary MS school with 25% of pupils with a statement is in, Stanley - I presume you mean EHCP now. I ask because on the gov.uk the school with the highest % of EHCPs for 2018/19 is nearly half that %.

And perhaps the most telling quote of all
"The best website is the UCAS one itself. www.ucas.com/ucas/undergraduate/apply-track/writing-personal-statement . It gives you far more accurate info than I have space for."

@Ribbityrib, my comments were addressed to both you and @titchy. so I ought maybe to have been more careful to differentiate between which remark was addressed to whom.

Frankly I was so incensed at @titchy's use of the word "oik" about my students I wa typing too fast and shaking with anger. I never intend to be unfair even if someone else is unfair. Sorry.

Some quotes from my book, please pick holes in these.

"Start off with a very clear statement as to why you are applying for the course. This must show real interest, real commitment, and some decent knowledge of the subject.
“I want to earn a ton of money” is not a good reason, on its own; you need to show passion for a subject as well as an interest in a career that follows on from it.
You must have read the course descriptions in the universities’ websites. These will contain the qualities, skills and experiences that it would be a good idea to have before applying.

You need to make very clear what it is that interests you about the subject, and why. "
"You have to tailor what you write to the course for which you are applying. Find out the sort of qualities that are important when doing the job, if you are applying for a vocational course, such as Dentistry. Ensure you have these qualities, ensure you can prove this and put this in."
"Refer in detail to the work placement you have done in this, or a related field. Nothing says you are the right person for the course more than having actually experienced the work."
"You need to mention your ambition(s). Unless you have ambitions beyond the degree, the admissions staff will wonder why you want to do the degree."
"Comment on parts of your studies that you found interesting, in detail, giving clear reasons why you found them interesting. Link them to the course you wish to follow."
"If you are applying to read English Literature then obviously, you are going to mention works you have read and comment on them in some detail. However, do not try to pad out a thin application with boring inanities. They will do more harm than good"

Quotes from chapter 17, so you can see that the book is about far more than just making UCAS applications.

And please remember this is written for students applying to do engineering, or accountancy or other practical subjects as well as more classical subjects.

Indeed if you think I am talking bollocks in any of these let me know, I will modify the content of the book to reflect the more accurate info you give me. I am certainly interested to discover that the "geeky" attraction to grades and nothing else is more widespread than I knew or had been told by other admissions tutors I had had contact with.

Believe me, all I want to do is give students accurate info, but you have to be aware that lots of this info is not that widely available to the general public and there is a lot of contradictory info out there. I wrote based on the experience I had had, my students had had, the positive results of applications and what I gleaned from the admissions tutors I met. And believe me, no two are exactly alike, so it made my job difficult trying to be all things to all admissions tutors.

By the way, it was an admissions tutor to a medicine course who told me the thing about candidates needing to be fit and in good health themselves. You don't believe it, I know. Sorry, but there you go.

And I really don't hate you, I have no idea who you are! I was just replying to what you wrote about fitness and personal development etc being part of getting into a RG uni.

Read what I wrote! that was exactly my point! Comprehensives in poor areas aren't going to have rowing 8s or indeed necessarily DofE schemes. Admissions tutors have made very deliberate efforts in recent years to make it clear in their admissions literature that getting into a top university does not rely on going to a school where 'personal development' takes priority, probably in the form of expensive extracurricular activities. But keep telling students that sport and activities will get them into uni, and where does that leave the ones that can't manage that because they don't have two pennies to rub together? Because despite what you may think, and like I said, repeatedly, it is students brains and hard work and enthusiasm for learning that will get them onto a top degree course, not irrelevant extracurricular stuff.
No I won't read your book - I'm no longer in the university sector anyway. If you don't want it misrepresented, then don't spout bollocks on here. I didn't even know you'd written a bloody book when I first replied to you! What kind of crazy self-importance leads to someone hectoring others to read their masterpiece before you can judge what they say on here?! Amazing.

I think that if decide to go down the private route both parents must be on board and happy to pay the money and without the children feeling pressured to do brilliantly or be at every extra curricular activity . £110k is not going to cover 21 years worth of private secondary so you’ll have to fund a lot out of income when dc 2 and 3 start . If you pressure your husband to go along with it I think you’re at risk of causing resentment and money worries ... sacrifices having to be made, concerns about job security , and whether you’re saving enough for pension.

Still don't get it do you? READ the BOOK, then you can criticise it!

By the way, rowing 8 in a comprehensive school? What world do you live in? Considering in my school 25% of the students had statements, where do you think we kept the 8, next to the single skulls?

"people who, like me, had not the faintest clue as to how to apply to university let alone the ivory towers." So who helped you then? And are you grateful for their help? That is all I was doing. don't judge a book by its cover or on one or two remarks about it.

I'm just so glad that my obviously misguided advice still managed to help students into Exeter, Warwick, Oxford, Imperial etc, etc etc.

Go on, just keep ignoring the facts if they don't line up with the criticism you want to aim at me.

By the way I am glad you "bent over backwards" in your admissions process to help the less well off. It would seem that much though you seem to hate me, we do or did still have the same aims in mind. at least you do not call them "oiks" . Credt where credit is due.

Speaking of grossly unfair, you are being likewise. How dare you imply anything at all about how I admitted students? I was the first in my family to go to university and bent over backwards in admissions to give the fairest possible chance to people who, like me, had not the faintest clue as to how to apply to university let alone the ivory towers.

As for reading your book, I think it's perfectly fair to go on the stuff you are posting here. You say 'students personal statement will be bursting with all the stuff RG unis look for: evidence of responsibility, great study skills, individual development, physical fitness' and I'm sorry but this is just bollocks. The idea that any of us give a toss about students' physical fitness is just bizarre, and as for study skills it's fair to say that if someone has a string of 9s at gcse then their study skills speak for themselves. If your book says nothing of the sort, then all to the good, but in that case why are you talking nonsense like that on here? State school kids, especially in deprived areas with little money or access to facilities, need to know that it is the quality of their brain and their enthusiasm we care about, not whether or not their school can provide them with a rowing 8 or a DofE scheme.

Yeah well, the single use of the word "Oik" by @titchy tells us far more than anyone needs to know about certain admissions tutors and their attitudes to those from the disadvantaged classes.

And @Ribbityrib read my book before you criticise it, please. Macrame, ball dancing skills, "well-rounded individual" or anything like that is not mentioned at all.

I am not a "self-proclaimed" expert, my expertise was recognised by others and this is the only reason for the book. I don't peddle "secrets" half-baked or otherwise. there aren't any.

My book is not totally about the application part of getting into top universities, if you even read just the list of contents you would know that. It is far more holistic and takes students through everything they need to do from yr 11 onwards.

Making these comments without having read the book is grossly unfair and not something one would expect from an academic.

And for @titchy to call my ex-students "oiks" is grossly insulting. I think that is the single most snobbish remark I have ever read on MN and some remarks on here are downright insulting. I just hope none of my ex-students ever came up against her.

Sadly this means I have to face a reality: there are admissions tutors out there who would rather not see students from disadvantages enter the portals of their ivory towers. Thank the Lord admissions are "team based anyway".

And what on earth makes you think that I am "perpetuating unfairness" The unfairness is already there, I know it, the government knows it, the DfE knows it. The unfairness is being perpetuated by people who regard some unfortunate young people as "oiks", despite their predicted grades and solid PSs. Thank heavens my students, once well prepared, managed to get past such institutionalised snobbery and ended up on good courses at top universities. If people like yourselves, in positions of some power were more openminded and the system was better, I would never have been asked to write the book as it would not have been necessary. In fact I find it interesting that I am being attacked for writing it, as this means you are attacking other people who do the job that I did.

No one who has read my book told me it was a waste of time, or contained nothing of any use, ALL those who have contacted me told me they found it useful and pointed out particular sections that they felt were of special interest.

I look forward to you actually reading it and then providing me with accurate criticism based on factual analysis, rather than assumption and prejudice. Imagine you are writing a research paper, base it on some actual research.

But then you probably would not be able to as you would not come into contact with the sort of student I used to help and their situations. What may seem commonsense advice that I give is all too often not known about or understood by many families in difficult circumstances.

I wonder if I was helping the homeless to find somewhere to live I would be being attacked in such a manner. It is the same sort of thing , just in a different sphere. But you will doubtless attack this analogy.

And obviously I am talking Oxbridge here,as they are as far as I know pretty much unique in interviewing nearly all candidates. But all university tutors want people who are keen to learn and interesting to teach. Highlighting macrame or ball-dancing skills just isn't the point of the PS.

If RG uni admissions tutors ONLY went by predicted grades why would they ever bother to interview?

To work out whether the candidate has a genuine interest in the subject (eg is not lying through their teeth about being fascinated by the Iliad), whether they can think on their feet, respond to intellectual challenge, and argue their corner rather than parroting preprepared answers to questions. The only relevance of 'physical fitness' would be an applicant to a sport science course. Physical fitness as a criterion for entry to medical school?!! Give me strength!

I would agree that grades are not literally the only consideration in admissions decisions. Oxbridge in particular need a way of differentiating between multiple applications with stellar grades. But if you are pushing the idea of being a 'rounded individual' as somehow important, that is categorically nonsense.

This is not arcane or contested information and there is no variation by individual interviewer (all decisions are team-based anyway). As I said above, the criteria for decision-making are very clearly laid out for individual subjects on the relevant department websites. In mine, there is an essay mark, an aptitude test mark, a gcse mark, and an interview mark. No personal statement mark.

Public schools unfortunately on balance do better at teaching the skills that will secure Oxbridge entry. But state schools are catching up, not least thanks to a hugely more transparent system than in past years. Absolutely nobody needs self-proclaimed experts peddling half-baked 'secrets' about Oxbridge entry. You just perpetuate the unfairness you claim to be redressing.

@titchy, @Rittyrib, @XelaM and @NewElthamMum13, are all right about what they say as far as MOST admissions tutors are concerned. And my stepdaughter is an admissions tutor as well.
I do know what I am talking about and all the things you have said about the personal statement are true, i.e as regards deep interest in the subject matter and reading around the subject, and of course (@titchy) they are strongly mentioned in my book, since it has been mentioned. But I have come across admissions tutors who break the mould you so conveniently put them into.

If RG uni admissions tutors ONLY went by predicted grades why would they ever bother to interview?

@NewElthamMum13 's quote is accurate and is not gainsaid it fact it is supported by what is in the book.

@titchy has it in for me for some personal reason that I cannot fathom. Book written? Yes. Self-published? Yes. but also, asked to write the book by others? Yes?

Has @titchy read my book? Don't think so.

Am I an oik? Definition please?
Does @titchy think oiks should not get into unis like hers? Tell us pray.

Remember, any admissions tutor who gets on here is only working for one uni at a time. I helped hundreds of disadvantaged students get into a wide range of unis many thought it would be impossible for them to get into. I knew my job, better than others and this was recognised. My expertise is not to get ONE type of student into ONE university, it is to help all students trying to get into the best type of university for them and onto the best course for them.

Some posters on this website seem to resent the fact that an ex-teacher and form teacher who wants to help students from disadvantaged backgrounds dares to post here.

I am not posting to parents who already are switched on and don't need help, but more those who are simply reading it who are possibly from disadvantaged backgrounds themsleves and want the best for their children but do not dare to post on here, as this place can resemble a gladiatorial arena. Which it is or can be.

@titchy likes to "tell" me things. Like "read the room" and "don't post until" and "you should". Stuff and nonsense, I have as much to contribute on this forum as others. I don't have your experience but you do not have mine. You may not like my attitude, but that is no need to blacken my character or pooh-pooh my advice or what I have done. As for "Mansplainy" she knows very well as I have told her this before, my mother was a doctor who always earned twice what my father did. My first wife, with whom I continued to work for most of my career and latterly became my boss was a very strong woman, yet she respected my work and gave me top sets that she knew I was better at teaching than she was. My present wife earned far more than I did. When she was working the only housework she did was the washing, I did everything else. So despite what she has stated I am like, she is totally wrong. I respect women enormously whether they be strong or not.

Mansplaining and patronising, are only true if the person you are addressing already knows the answers. I am addressing my remarks to those who do NOT know the answers and come on here to find out, and I do NOT mean just those who post on here.

If personal statements and references did not matter students would not be forced to write them. Which of course IS the case in France.

And as for being physically fit, you do need to be fit to train as a doctor and do the long hours they need to do while training. Also if you are applying to the forces, Sandhurst etc Remember I did say I helped children from ALL walks of life try to get into ALL SORTS of places, not just RG.

Honestly, can some of you bury the hatchet, just because I am male? We are not all domineering shits.

And that’s £75K to GCSE, £105K if they stay on till A Level. I liked my schools but do personally wonder what advantages my education gave me - I’ve stayed in some great houses and gone to some fantastic parties and speak (what my mother would call) ‘nicely’ but career wise, it’s made no difference (and in fact being a bit posh was a negative in some of the environments I’ve worked in). Arguably, I’d have achieved the same academic results elsewhere. But it’s really up the individual parents and there are no rights or wrongs here - at the end of the day we’re all striving to do what’s best!

Rather obviously the ones who haven’t sat the 11+ wouldn’t be eligible anyway for the grammar. It may be overcrowded and underfunded but I imagine it will be producing similar (if not higher) results? The class sizes might be smaller in the indie but there won’t be more than 30 in the grammar and personally I would be questioning whether that was really really worth say the £75000 in fees (if you go on the average of £15k yearly). But horses for courses! Yes there is (much like the leap from GCSE to A Level) an inevitable initial leap when it comes to University - I know I felt it when I made it (having gone to a private school which regularly features in the Top Ten Global Independents) as did many of my privately educated friends. You get over the bump and adjust quickly though.

Some sweeping statements from both camps on here. Private school pupils struggle once they move on to 6th form or uni? Not where my daughter was concerned; she out performed most of her state grammar friends and has hit the ground running at uni, whereas she has found a lot of her course peers struggled with the transition from school to more independent study. Her school ethos was very much towards independent learning and initiative, certainly not a spoon fed approach! We are now deliberating state grammar versus independent for our next child, and where state options are concerned, it really does depend on where you live. Our grammars are good, but they are quite crowded and under funded, and a lot of the brightest kids in our child’s prep, including some who have sat and passed 11+, are looking for good independents instead.

"State schools just take the kids they get and the teachers have to somehow make it work no matter what the disparity. This usually means the quiet ones get ignored as the teachers are focussed on managing the behaviour of the disruptive ones"

What an outrageously generalised and dismissive statement.

Fine, you foudn private school was right for your kids, and can afford to pay for it, but please don't make sweeping statements about a sector you have little contemporary experience of.

And as for extra tutoring to 'fill the gap' - I can assure you that the state schools I have had contact with cover the full curriculum and at the pace right for children in different 'sets'. None of my DC or friend's DC have had or needed extra tutoring, and have achieved top results.

We looked at the local private options but chose to go with a state comprehensive instead. I'm so glad we did. Some of dd's primary school friends ended up in one of the private schools (supposedly the "best" in our area) and I genuinely can't see what the added value is. Would have been a complete waste of money as far as I can see.

Is "good enough" really good enough for your children? Personally, state or independent, I would want the best school for my child. And yes, that usually means different schools for different children.

OP we're a few years ahead of you, with a bigger annual income/savings pot, and we had the same dilemma. Obviously our experience is personal to us, but I thought I'd chip in as we were in the same boat (me wanting private, DH saying state).

We went state, despite offers from some of the most best public schools, because our local state is excellent and because I couldn't see that the advantages of public school were worth what would be a considerable outlay to us. I appreciate if you've loads of money, it wouldn't be a sacrifice, but it would have been to us.

I am so glad we did what we did. We are financially comfortable, and DC are happy. We do organise a tutor in one subject, which costs £40 a week (central London) and DC gets themselves there on the bus, so all I have to do is put £40 into an envelope and put it in their school bag once a week. No drama.

DC have really nice, educated, well-mannered friends (we went to public schools, as did lots of the parents of children at the state school), from a very broad range of backgrounds, which I love. Some parents are lawyers, some work in high street shops, some don't work.

When I compare DS's writing and spelling and reading ability to his cousin of the same age who has gone to super smart private schools, our state-educated DS is way above (so satisfying).

I think private school guarantees you friends from a certain social level, and to those with new money that is probably a big lure.

The opportunity to do loads of things eg try the sax, is also going to be better at public schools.

But honestly I am so so glad we went down the state route, and thank god that we did.

I completely agree with streaming kids, and if the school is able to do it, its a good solution (except for the very bright kids who have learning differences etc) I know I havent watched one of my children go through State school, but I have many friends that do and also have friends that teach in both sectors. I wasnt meaning my points to be a blanket view on every private and State school, its just the ones that were relevant to our situation and choices.

“State schools just take the kids they get and the teachers have to somehow make it work no matter what the disparity. This usually means the quiet ones get ignored as the teachers are focussed on managing the behaviour of the disruptive ones”.

With respect, all 4 of yours are at Private school. My DDs State school (like most) stream, in DDs school based on SATS. A quiet child in the top stream (and there are 4 possible streams at DDs school) is as likely to be as challenged and uninterrupted in terms of behaviour as in a Private school. DD is only Year 7 but is in the top streams and has seen little bad behaviour, any of which gets stamped on quickly by the strict detention system.

I have 4 at private school. The loacal schools are pretty good, but not great. These were our decision points

A good education is the most valuable thing you can give your child and one of the very few things that cant be taken from them

Most private schools have the ability to pick and choose which children they want in their classrooms. It means that they are able to build classes of children with similar abilities. Eg supportive of average learners, pushing the brightest, differentiated learning for sn and learning differences. State schools just take the kids they get and the teachers have to somehow make it work no matter what the disparity. This usually means the quiet ones get ignored as the teachers are focussed on managing the behaviour of the disruptive ones

We wanted our children pushed to fit their abilities, the private schools have much smaller class sizes, that means the teachers are able to get to know each child and adjust their style/explanations/expectations slightly differently for each child

Children need time to be children. If they do a full day at school and come home and have to start with tutoring and extra activities to fill the gap, what was the point of school? Is it just a waste of time then, or just good for socialising? Children need to be able to come home from school and rest and recharge and do things that they want to/find fun.

Our local schools have ok facilities, but the private schools offer so many things for the children to try. This means that a child might find they really like something that you would never have guessed because they were able to try it out at school (for minimal extra cost and hassle to the parent as well). Our DS 3 decided to try the sax at school, they let him play the school instrument and it turns out he loves it. We would never in a thousand years have thought he would be musical as he is dyspraxic with speech issues. It was a case of the school seeing him so clearly and suggesting something that would challenge him, it did and he loves it. DD was picked up as being good at maths, the teachers started letting her move right into the extra challenge activities in class and she is now being assessed to move up to the next class for maths classes (again something they can manage in a private school as they have more flexibility)

If there was a good private school as an option for my dc, I would always go that route.

When you tour the schools, try asking about differentiated instruction, how they handle disruptive kids, if they take kids with significant sn and learning differences. Ask about teacher tenure and the school endowment, ask if they support their teachers in furthering their own educations.

A little bit spurious this link between hobbies, interests & intelligence. Any idiot can have a hobby. Achieving academically has little correlation in achieving greatness in the Sports or Arts. Conversely, the hobbies and interests of some exceptionally intelligent person I would suspect have little bearing on their desirability as a candidate, for example, my ridiculously bright cousin (who achieved a 1st in Maths from St Andrews and has a PHD and now gets paid a small fortune to do something incomprehensible in coding) whose interests lie solely in excessive gaming, death metal and beer.