State/private school university admissions

I must say in my own family, I went to normal state schools (albeit in Germany where gymnasiums were similar to the English grammars) and always did well, but my brother did terribly at a good state primary. Therefore my parents decided to put him into an expensive independent school. The difference that has made to his education and his personality was unbelievable. He ended up with two First class degrees from Cambridge and from Queen Mary universities and is now doing a phd at Harvard. My parents said that the only money they never regretted spending was on education.

An exceptional child will do well anywhere (and really should be rewarded for that with top uni offers!) but normal bright child who could slip through the cracks in the local comp might just thrive in the private sector.

@PatienceVirtue and @Hepaibar I agree that children who do well in awful schools with little parental input are truly exceptional and well deserving of an Oxbridge place ahead of anyone from a private school background. However, there really is no difference between a kid from a private school background and (most) kids at QEB, Henrietta Barnett and similar insanely selective schools and the latter should not have any priority over the private schools.

We must surely feel that the benefits of small class sizes, amazing extra curricular activities and the cleansing of families in poverty which brings so many difficulties, plus the benefit of scholarships for the gifted, really gives those that can afford to invest in their children a headstart ... let's be honest that's why so many of us send our children to independents.

Not that there are not many good comprehensives, where with children achieve well, with the backing of their parents and have the added benefits of being able to experience life with a wider variety of people ... but they still may be a few grades down from that Oxbridge place ... and imagine the children with little parental input in a not very good school who achieve good, if not so good as your good comprehensives or independents ... they must be truly intelligent, dedicated and deserve their place.

Well, imvho, if you feel the need to change your child's school in the hope of getting lower university offers and a higher chance of getting into Oxford or Cambridge, then your levels of competitiveness and paranoia are vastly superior to your child's academic ability.

Yes, Xela as those schools including a state school by the way have very selective entry so that is not surprising.

@merryhouse I thought there was a study published in December 2018 that 8 schools dominate Oxbridge (all independent schools) - Eton, Westminster, St Pauls were among the 8. I may have misread the statistics

I’ve just checked a few lists too. The school that Dc went to from age 11-16 is on that contextual offers list They are now at another school’s sixth form. Their old school made it onto that ‘worst 200 schools in England’ list in January too (published in the newspapers) so I can’t say I’m surprised!
Dc got good grades despite being in a very challenging intake. Who knows though- possibly they may have hit a couple of more high grades if (like other parents) we’d flipped feeder schools/ got religion or moved house to avoid the school.
I’m happily surprised if it means that they (and others like them) may now be eligible for a slightly lower uni a Level entrance offer should they set their sights on those universities.

The brightest children get in so academically selective state and private schools get a lot in whereas private schools for the intellectuall challenged (there are many of them) and bog standard comp don't get many in.

It would be quite useful for someone to set up an England wide website where offers made with some key data like name of university and if you are at preivate, state grammar, comp and region of the UK could be keyed in too just to see what comes out of it. My sons at Bristol had reasonably high offers (AAA and AAB) from a private school (which offers they met).

One of my daughter’s friends switched from a private school to a v well regarded state school for 6th form and got a AAB offer for a course for which the standard offer is A*AA. Both said pupil’s parents went to university & the pupil went to private from 4-16, sister was private all the way through. She didn’t have any learning difficulties or other problems.

@XelaM How does this fit in with the fact that Westminster, Eton and St Paul's etc. supply more kids to Oxbridge than most others combined?

This is Simply Not True, and a few seconds pondering numbers would make that obvious.

It's true that a small number of schools make up a significant proportion of the private school Oxbridge intake; but that has nothing to do with this discussion.

I am absolutely gobsmacked to see our local comp on that contextual offers list.

It has really good results and many many kids go there for 6th form from private school.

No wonder so many from the comp go to Bristol uni!

That's naughty!

One of the reasons that kids from independent schools are more likely to get into Oxbridge is that their advisors (whether parents or school) are a bit more savvy about the kinds of GSCE and A Level choices to make ahead of time, and what subjects to apply for (i.e where do they have a good shot at acceptance).

A student with less well informed advisors (or none) might apply for a famous Oxford course like PPE (12% acceptance rate) but might not have done the relevant subjects at A level to boost their chances (how many state schools offer Philosophy, Politics or Economics?). Out of 2338 applicants last year, 1604 were not even invited to interview.

A student with better advisors and more forward planning might apply for Classics (38% acceptance rate) and they interviewed 96% of applicants for Classics last year so nearly everyone had a shot. BUT a state school is less likely to offer Latin and Greek at A Level (whereas I bet nearly all independents do), and you need top marks in at least Latin OR Greek to apply. (If you have one but not the other, you do an intensive crash course in Oxford the summer before you start so that you hit the ground running).

To do Classics at a "normal" uni, you can do beginners Latin AND Greek there, or do one and Classical Civilisation/Ancient History.

So there are some practical, strategic subject-based reasons why state school students don't get in.

I think different colleges and different subjects have different philosophies and weighting of the different parts of the admissions process.

Stricly you are entitlted to it though aren't you if you meet those rules - eg someone might go to a good prep school until 13+ and then a state school for GCSEs to get a contextual offer or move to Buckinghamshire as they want grammar schools.

So the point is they are entitled to it if they meet the criteria. So it is very different from for example lying about where you live.

The Bristol scheme applies to 40% of children a vast number and I bet some of those children will have many more advantages than some children in the top 60% of schools.

“ The best thing all of us can ever teach our children is that live is not fair so you just have to get on with it and do the best you can.“

And how does that square with gaming the system to get something you are not entitled to and which was designed specifically for people with far fewer advantages in life than you have? Basically stealing from them. It’s practically a definition of despicable.

I thnk utterly despicable is going a bit far. You could call it "love" instead, to want to do the best for your child. It is what all parents do from cuddling the baby and feeding it to reading to older children and keeping them warm and safe and helping them with homework, picking a good school, or moving countrie even with many immigrants to put their child in a sense before all others. So not despicable but love and kind and lovely and common sense.

As for the system I thikn it works fairly well. my twins are at Bristol from a private school. They know lots of children there from all kinds of backgrounds and schools. Bristol has its own system different from others for contextual offers. This list 40% of schools which get the worst exam results and if you go to one of those you may well get an offer 1 or 2 grades lower than my sons had to get (because I chose to bust a gut, work full time even when they were 2 weeks old - which perhaps in some mothers' views means they were deprived and should get a contextual offer for maternal neglect although not my view).. so I could afford school fees.

The best thing all of us can ever teach our children is that live is not fair so you just have to get on with it and do the best you can.

Bristol's contextual offer system is at www.bristol.ac.uk/study/undergraduate/entry-requirements-qualifications/contextual-offers/ You can find the 40% of schools which are bad on there and you can also type in your postcode to see if it is in a failing area. I just tried mine and then also my late parents' in Newcastle. Newcastle bea where I am on something called a quintile based on ethnicity - I live in one of the most mixed London boroughs but otherwise Newcastle seemed lower although both are good roads in their respective places Newcastle and outer London.

I think Oxbridge (and any university) admissions are pretty sophisticated they'll know that a high performing comp in a leafy area is just that.

They'll also know that grammar schools in Kent are a different beast to the superselective grammars in other areas.

State schools are not equal.

Neither are private schools. I'd have thought they'd weigh up postcode and affluence with private schools as well. Eton is not the same as an independent grammar with lowish fees.

I may be attributing more sophistication than admissions tutors actually employ, but I think they're pretty clued up and they'll have a good idea if someone is gaming the system.

“ That's the trouble with social mobility though, isn't it, Bertrand, (not all) middle-class parents are fine with children rising up but they're not so keen if it means their children will have to go down.”
Why will their children have to “go down”? Contextual offers are ^specificially* to help children from disadvantaged backgrounds. Even thinking of ways to steal from those children is utterly, utterly despicable.

The idea that people would even try to game the system like this is utterly, utterly disgusting and they should be ashamed.