State/private school university admissions

@thehorseandhisboy Well said

"This sort of analysis ignores the transformation in these schools over the last 50 years. Schools that used to educate a social elite, now educate an academic elite, as society as a whole has changed and become meritocratic."

Eh? Eton, St Paul's and Westminster DON'T educate a social elite? Aren't the basic fees for somewhere like Eton 40K+ a year. Who else are they educating then?

Society hasn't become meritocratic. If anything, the increasing wealth differentials, stopping of maintenance grants and tuition fees being paid and more middle class 'gaming' of the system, it's become even more hostile towards other less privileged social groups.

If people even half believed that society organises itself along meritocratic lines, they wouldn't feel the need to send their children to private schools, move to get into the catchment of 'good' schools etc etc etc.

People would be more than happy to send their children to their local school, regardless of how good or not it is, because a child's natural ability would determine their educational level and prospects.

Ha, ha, ha.

Ps the biggest factor in oxbridge offers is the course, some get 10+ quality applications per place, others just 2, you are more likely to get a contextual place for the latter eg dd was told AAB would get her in because she had 4 out of the 6 factors they consider (school in special measures, poor postcode, special needs and no kids into oxbridge from school - we aren't fsm and we went to university which were the other 2), she didn't get the grades due to mental health problems unfortunately

A. They look at where you take your GCSEs not a levels and b it's only failing schools that get a boost. There's 6 factors taken into account, school is just 1

When my DC wanted to move from state to private for sixth form I was slightly worried that they might be sabotaging their Oxbridge chances.
In the event they received an offer from their first choice (old, central) college so I think there is a bit more to admissions than state/ private quotas.

Why is this a surprise? Three of the most academically successful schools (Eton, St Paul's and Westminster, to which you could add Winchester, and St Paul's Girls and Wycombe Abbey) send a high proportion of their pupils to the best universities. That is exactly what you would expect. And the least successful schools don't send many children to top universities.

This sort of analysis ignores the transformation in these schools over the last 50 years. Schools that used to educate a social elite, now educate an academic elite, as society as a whole has changed and become meritocratic.

Milicentbystander72 they all have completely different criteria. Bristol uses just the school, so eg a girl that went to private prep until 13 then moves to the comp (popular) gets a lower offer despite living in a huge house with wealthy parents and a tutor.

@XelaM How does this fit in with the fact that Westminster, Eton and St Paul's etc. supply more kids to Oxbridge than most others combined?

@merryhouse This is Simply Not True, and a few seconds pondering numbers would make that obvious.

The Sutton Trust's news release states:

"Eight top schools and colleges sent as many pupils to Oxford or Cambridge over three years as three-quarters (2,900) of all schools and colleges across the UK",

specifically that

"the eight schools and colleges with the highest number of Oxbridge acceptances has 1,310 between them over a three-year period, while 2,894 with two or fewer acceptances sent just 1,220 pupils to Oxford or Cambridge in the same time period."

The Sutton Trust did not name the eight schools and speculation is that two of them are Hills Road Sixth Form College and Peter Symonds College, but the other six are indeed 'Westminster, Eton, St Paul's, etc.'

Even taking out the two state sixth form colleges, it's likely that the top six private schools sent more than 1000 students to Oxbridge over three years, which will be more than the bottom half of schools combined.

Trewser so if the school you attend is on the published contextual school list from a certain university, they still use your postcode?

Just trying to understand it.

All universities contextual offers are different. Ie some use your home postcode instead of the school (must be state).

I've just checked the Bristol contextual list. My dcs comp is on there as well as pretty much all big standard comps in the area.

My dcs comp is not outstanding in results, but in a fairly monied area. However about a 1/4 of its intake is from an extremely deprived area.

My friends DS has just gone to Cambridge from our Comp. I'm confused about the contextual thing though as his grade requirements were AAA*
Did he have a 'contextual' offer with AA A*?

Bristol has always been known for its posh intake, and I suppose this is a way of maintaining that while also ticking the odd diversity box it must be. There are pockets of deprivation in our local town but it is generally moneyed. If you type in the postcodes they are all in a very high socioeconomic bracket (using the program that other unis use to make their contextual offers). Naughty Bristol.

Someone was telling me about this 'contextual offers' situation and specifically Camden Girls just a couple of days ago.

Her dd is in the sixth form there, and there are lots of girls who were privately educated up to GCSE then transferred to Camden Girls, as OP describes, for the potential advantage of being a 'state school applicant' for Bristol specifically.

I wonder if school 'request' to be included on contextual offers lists? Because it is peculiar that Camden Girls, Fortismere etc are and other local comprehensives in much less desirable postcodes and a much higher FSM intake aren't. They do describe the list as 'aspiring state schools' so maybe that is the case?

Bristol has always been known for its posh intake, and I suppose this is a way of maintaining that while also ticking the odd diversity box.

I'm surprised that @titchy isn't on this thread as she has been on so many others with a similar subject. She (I'm assuming she is a "she" by the way) is something like an admissions tutor from possibly a Russell Group uni and she knows all about this topic.

As far as I am concerned, I spent the last third of my teaching career coaching students in my heavily creamed state comprehensive, (latterly an academy), to help them get into RG unis. And they came back from interviews telling me that they had been told that coming from their background made quite a difference. But unis don't just look at students' schools, they look at postcode, parents' situation, first to uni etc etc.

But don't give up hope, getting into a top uni isn't all about grades. If you are predicted top grades or not, you also need to have a very solid UCAS pesonal statement containing the sorts of things that a private school student's would. Also the reference in the UCAS matters. I once had a student go to interview at Imperial and he was told he was there as they wanted to see if the glowing reference was true, it was and he got in. If I was you, I'd not try to game all this. Uni admission tutors are not fools. Put your child where you and he/she are happiest and work on getting the grades and ensuring the UCAS is solidly packed with great stuff. Best of luck.

ALthough to be fair to Bristol where my private educated sons are, my son did say most of those he knows with contextual offers in practice got much higher grades anyway closer to or bette rhtna his AAA, even though their offers were quite a bit lower. I don't know if that is just anecdote though or if the statistics of grades achieved by Bristol contextual offer people v. what they were offered.

Our local comp is hugely leafy, in a really posh postcode. Mad. They got 10 to Oxbridge last year. I suppose that way Bristol can get naice clever kids and also look as though they are being diverse!

Bristol took ds's school off their contextual offers list despite the fact it has been Requires Improvement for 3 years, is on its fourth head and has a FSM percentage up in the 40%. It is a very 'leafy' postcode though, so some unis just see the postcode despite the fact the school sits in big pockets of social housing as well as the £2m houses. Birmingham doesn't have it on their list, but Manchester and Warwick do. It is not as simple as one list - the universities hold their own lists and criteria.

I've had a look at a few universities and they all seem to follow a different approach. Some just use the list of the bottom 40% of schools as mentioned above - and I also found some surprises on there. But at the end of the day it's factual - based on progress scores. There's no other way to do it, unless you simply went by numbers on free school meals?

Other universities use a combination of this and postcode 'progression to HE' data. For some it's one or the other, for some you have to qualify under both. We live in a quartile 1 postcode and I noticed my dd would qualify for a contextual offer from Durham on the basis of her postcode and the fact that she's going to do A Levels at a state school (any state school counts).

I guess all these measures are very 'broad brush'. I'm not sure going to a 'top university' is the be all and end all anyway and I'm pretty sure dd won't need a contextual offer anyway. I certainly wouldn't make major life decisions like moving schools or house just to get a contextual offer!

There are some unexpected schools on that contextual offer list - one school in my city is in the leafiest of all possible leafy suburbs, where it would cost in the region of £1m to buy a house close enough to get in (and only 67% of kids in catchment are offered places as it is). It is regularly featured on "best state school in the UK" sort of lists.

The school we ARE in catchment for has a waaaaay less affluent catchment (i.e. us!) and isn't on the list.

My ds's comp, which is on a number of universities' contextual offers lists, offers Philosophy (not within RS as philosophy and ethics but as a separate subject), Government & Politics and Economics A levels.

That's fantastic - my dc's aren't in secondary yet, but the subjects offered at a-level by our local school don't include subjects like these. They're pretty uninspiring, tbh.

I have just seen that Fortismere is on the contextual offer list!! What?! It's one of the most sought after state schools (probably THEE most sought after comprehensive in London!) in one of the most expensive areas in London. It has a tiny catchment area of very wealthy North Londoners who can afford to move within a few metres of thw school. It's also extremely high performing. Has it mot been named the best comp in the country a few years ago?

And our local comps that really have an intake from a mostly deprived area are not on that list!!

My ds's comp, which is on a number of universities' contextual offers lists, offers Philosophy (not within RS as philosophy and ethics but as a separate subject), Government & Politics and Economics A levels.

Kokeshi - facilitating subjects have been done away with by Russell Group universities: www.tes.com/news/russell-group-universities-scrap-list-facilitating-subjects

Philosophy is covered under Religious Studies (philosophy and ethics) and is offered at most state schools, ditto Economics. Dds academic private school doesn't offer Politics.

how many state schools offer Philosophy, Politics or Economics

??? Philosophy and politics are offered only at a minority of all schools, state and private. Most state schools offer Economics. By the way, I am pretty sure that philosophy and politics are not considered "facilitating subjects" for top universities, and that if you want to study PPE at a stop uni you would be better off with maths and history etc.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/higher_education/2742031-Facilitating-subjects-your-views-experiences?messages=100&pg=1

C.f., "if you want to read law, don't do Law A-level" etc.