Sixth Form: Pros and cons of moving to a super-selective grammar school

I think it will depend on the provision of her current school. Does the current school provide enough support for students applying university?How is the outcome of their A level exam result? Is the school's teaching good enough, I will look at the percentage of the A*% for the subjects that your DD will choose. And how many students go to university after this.If the current school has everything , then of course it is safer just stay put.

To be honest, A level is different, it's only 2 years, in a short period, students learn their subjects, look at the university choice, apply to university. There are not much to compare between the students, as everyone has chosen their own combination of subjects. So I would make sure the school has enough support for the university application. And there is a culture that most students will go to university, this is quite important as well.

My DS went to a state non selective 6 form with his group of friends. They don't have much chance to meet each other, only find time during lunch time. As they all have different subject options and the school is massive. However, the school has really good university application support. There is talks arranged by school to enrich their subjects, specialist teacher to guide you if you wish to apply to Oxbridge and they check your personal statement and provide mock interview.

Also, A level course is much harder than GCSE, provide more in depth knowledge, I don't think your DD will be able to do minimum to get a good result.

Similar daughter but had same in year 7 - been very happy and very high achieving at primary, went to very high achieving London grammar. Academically brilliant and made her do 2 hours homework a night but she was so very unhappy there it wasn't worth it. Pastoral care was dire - they just said she shouldn't be depressed as her results were excellent and gave her a older child to talk to who said it just gets worse and school don't care however depressed you are and neither do my parents. So we took her out and moved to a comp and much happier, results may or may not be dipping a bit (not totally clear atm, comp struggles to get languages teachers but still doing really well) but I wouldn't risk it if she's happy and high achieving. University offers are sometimes adjusted for school results.

senua, I'm not sure if it was on purpose (i.e. deliberately intentional), but it did feel as though they weren't bothering - which was a shame as a huge swathe of those there were their own students! My DS felt sorry for them as the teachers seemed so flat and uninspiring.

We went to look at one too. I expected to be really impressed, but it felt strangely flat. I couldn't work it out at all.
It may have been on purpose. Our superselectives are oversubscribed - they really don't need to encourage yet more applicants. I think they take the attitude of "if you don't want a place then that's fine. Move along because there are plenty more in the queue behind you."

cant I think you are right oldest Ds stayed in his school for sixth form as he was settled and happy and saw no reason to move. Youngest Ds at grammar is anything but settled and happy so the decision to move is easy really as I don't see that things could be any worse elsewhere.

I think (leaving the grammar thing to one side) any change of school for 6th form - I speak as the parent of 1 child who stayed put and one child who moved to a different school - can be tough.

It is such a short time, in the overall scheme of education, and decisions need to be taken in such quick succession (it feels as if only minutes after choosing A-levels and arriving, DD is starting to consider university courses). Having to combine this with making new friends and getting used to a new environment can be really challenging.

Is the only real difference the grammar / comp one? How many extra pupils does the sixth form take, and conversely how many others from the comp leave? DD and DS both went to sixth forms with very substantial additional intakes at Y12, which is obviously easier for the incomers than if there are only a few of them, but even so DD has found it hard to make social headway into established groups (groups from the earlier years of the school she has gone to, and groups of friends all transferring from another school together).

is the provision for a-levels in each school identical? For DD and DS, the choice was easy - for DS, he stayed put because one of his choices had a tiny intake at the other school, and as a result only had one full time teacher, leading to some lessons being 'self study'. On the other hand, the way her particular subjects were organised and examined made the new school much more attractive to DD.

Ultimately, I think there has to be a 'bigger and more personal' reason than just 'oh, it's a more selective school with better results' (what is the value add like at 6th for for each) - in terms of the specific board / course, the teaching, the facilities etc. If all of your child's friendship group stays behind, and they find it very hard to settle, they will need a really compelling reason to stick it out!

@senua obviously don't know about OP's DC, but my DD didn't go to super selective in Y7 because she didn't pass the entrance exam. She should have done - she got all 8s and 9s in her GCSEs and was high flyer from the start in y7. It just shows you how wrong and unfair these exams are.

Did you actually like the Grammar when you looked round? We went to look at one too. I expected to be really impressed, but it felt strangely flat. I couldn't work it out at all. There was no real chance to talk to teachers, just rolling dry lectures about subjects that were far from inspiring - they basically just listed out the A-level curriculum in their subject. I'm sure the teaching must be excellent, but DS's comp's open evening felt far more dynamic in comparison.

the average ranges from B- to B+, which isn't that different from the LEA average of C.
Just noticed that the average across all England is C+. They really aren't outperforming by much!

DD is reasonably likely to get an offer to the Sixth Form of a highly regarded super-selective grammar school and we're considering pros and cons.
As a matter of interest, why didn't she go there at Y7?

Our local Grammars are superselective and like to think that they are the bees knees but their A Level results aren't that stellar: the average ranges from B- to B+, which isn't that different from the LEA average of C. They may be superseletive at Y7 but not so much at Y12.
You can search your target school here

Also, don't judge a sixth form by the whole school. You need to drill down and focus purely on the specific A Level subjects that your DC will be doing.

How many "outside" students does this 6th form accept?

DD's school was the only school in the LA that had a 6th form. Most students went to the 6th form college in town or the one in the next town. They did get a few "outsiders" come for 6th form, but most of them didn't settle as friendship groups were already established and they were quite a cliquey lot. Most of them left after a couple of weeks.

So I wouldn’t use this as a comparison

I have/had one child at each school, so in this particular instance I can.

We had similar dilemma last year and DD went to 6th form induction day of existing comp and super selective. It was a hard choice because she liked both, however she knew she would definitely be happy in old school so decided it was safer to stay there.

On the plus side, her comp does not get good A Level results and due to this she has received some 'low' offers from Russel Group unis ie AAB instead of 3x A*.

Also, comp has very small 6th form compared with super selective and DD's classes are tiny - largest has 6 kids. Now she is in y13, The teachers are giving 121 revision sessions.

On the con side, the comp has not been able to give much help with Oxbridge preparation. The super selective has a class every week on this.

Overall DD is very happy at comp and is doing very very well. She made right decision to stay.

However, the quality of teaching at the grammar was a level above what she was used to, more debate in class, more general involvement of the kids and critical thinking in their education - she loved this aspect.

DD stayed at the same school for A levels, and found that the quality of teaching and the way the teachers interacted with the students was completely different from lower school. So I wouldn’t use this as a comparison. The prep for uni was excellent, and they supported DD when she decided to take a gap year, by checking over her personal statement and providing references.

Lots of typos, sorry.

My DS1 moved from his perfectly average comp to a super selective grammar school at sixth form. It was entirely his choice. I thought he’d be happier being a bigger fish in a smaller pond and staying where he had some friends. He was determined, though.

It worked out very well fo him. He made a lot of like minded friends. He’s been seen as a bit awkward and geeky in secondary but fitted in well at the sixth form. They did take about 50% new starters, externals, which made it easier to break in to established friendship groups.

He relished the high standards or the other students and performed very well in his exams.

I can see that if it had been a smaller intake of new students it might have been harder, and the ethos of the new school has to suit. DS1 found his sixth form very relaxed about rules and any pressure they were placed under was down to the students themselves. All his friends were extremely self motivated.

If the desire to move is coming from your DD then I’d be supporting her, but wouldn’t pressure to move if she’s happy where she is. If she goes with a negative attitude it won’t work, and you’ll get the blame!

@thesandwich that's interesting as our data shows that are new students frequently out perform our original students. Many fit right in. Both my house captains were new to year 12 and a few years ago our school captain was someone who joined in year 12. It's difficult to give advice though as so much depends on the school in question and your daughter. Feel free to DM me.

This could be said a lot about the difference between GCSE and sixth form in general

It could be, but her sister - 1 year younger - has stayed at the secondary... the teaching quality at the grammar was a different level.

However, the quality of teaching at the grammar was a level above what she was used to, more debate in class, more general involvement of the kids and critical thinking in their education - she loved this aspect.

This could be said a lot about the difference between GCSE and sixth form in general.

My DD was desperate to go to a Grammar sixth form after doing well at GCSE in a secondary.

It had advantages and disadvantages.

Her mental health was not helped by being the bottom half of the class in every subject. We struggled with this as a family. Her sister decided to stay at her secondary as a result.

The school had used different exam boards to the secondary she went to - there were some big gaps in her knowledge base pushing on into A level as a result and she had to do catch up work for quite some time.

However, the quality of teaching at the grammar was a level above what she was used to, more debate in class, more general involvement of the kids and critical thinking in their education - she loved this aspect.

The prep for uni (uni was expected as the next step, rather than being presented as an option for the best students) was outstanding. Transport to open days, advice on applications and preparing for interviews, pushing for good mock results to get the predicted grades solid for applications etc.

A mentally robust child, who has taken the GCSEs with the boards that the grammar had taken and had put in additional work above and beyond what was required would fare very well.

I don't think my daughter would make the same choice if it were possible to do-over.

If you are wanting the new school to "push her more" etc. then this is exactly not the time to be doing this in my opinion. At Sixth Form students should be learning to be self motivated rather than relying on external pressure. Otherwise the massive freedom of University can be a huge culture shock (and can lead to massive mistakes).
Also your DD s at present relatively unstressed - why would you want to stress her out?

If there were good reasons to move her - such as course choices, then that would be great. But also at 16 any decision to move should really be hers. Yes do show her any alternatives and get her to think about them, but she should really be making the decisions.

Personally I think it's better to shine in an average school than be unhappy in a high-achieving school. I would leave the decision up to her though. She'll probably be absolutely fine in both so let her take responsibility.
NB I am one of those jammy people always got top marks with minimal effort. It's never done me any harm (quite the opposite!)

Ds is probably leaving his grammar for a sixth form at our local secondary modern. Many people are surprised when we tell them. He is a very bright boy but autistic and has been incredibly unhappy in his all boys state selective. Not much support and zero pastoral care until we pushed.

To be honest I think I would advise her to stay put if she is happy and achieving well but if she takes most things in her stride she would probably have no problems. Does she have any preferences?

Dh taught in a high achieving grammar and their data showed that students who joined in 6th form from other schools consistently did not perform as well as the existing pupils or to their predictions based on GCSEs etc.
Culture change, new environment , new staff , learning style- I have also heard of this at other selective sixth forms.
Obviously there are exceptions, but choose wisely.

I went to a superselective from 11 and had friends join at 16. Personally I loved my school but others have different experiences. Some things to consider:

• How many new pupils do they take? If it is only a few is this an issue? May not be as classes will naturally be mixed up due to everyone doing different subjects. My school also mixed up form groups.
• The current school may have a more academic focused sixth form as not all pupils stay on. Alternatively they may not set in sixth form particularly for niche subjects and due to timetabling constraints which may lead to coasting in mixed ability classes
• How well will schools support next steps? My school was good at supporting applications to uni and especially Oxbridge. They did things like extra lessons, giving everyone a position of responsibility etc. You may or may not it like this. Her current school may do a good job anyway.
• Your DD's personality. My brother did well at superselective as he couldn't coast as much. Others don't like that academics can come above pastoral care.

Personally I'd probably switch schools if she is keen and motivated but my experience is colouring that.