Can anyone prove their parents didn't go to uni?

@StanleySteamer how is it fair to deny someone an education for choices their parents made? Surely the only way to make it fair is for the government to provide a proper education?

@RedskyToNight I had four contact hours a week during my degree. Some courses have less. I could have easily fitting a full time job around that.

The government is using a very blunt instrument to try and make universities "inclusive".

What blunt instrument is theGovernment using Stanley? Universities are not required to, or funded for, increasing the number of first in families. Where these interventions exist it's because the university actively wants to target this group.

Sorry to be thick but what kinds of opportunities are asking this question?

I was ineligible for a couple of retraining things because of having been to uni myself but parents is a bit weird. Tbh I found the uni for myself weird but that’s a whole other conversation!

The government is using a very blunt instrument to try and make universities "inclusive". From the comprehensive I taught in it was made very clear to Oxbridge and other RG candidates that their background was an advantage. And that was up to seven years ago. But I never relied on this and ensured my charges got the best A-level grades possible as well as being able to fill their Personal Statements with the right sort of achievements. I gave them what a Public School would have given them and this enabled them to battle through university application on a level playing field. And no, none of them ever had to prove that their parents didn't go to uni. The only way to ever make uni application completely fair would be to ban both grammar schools and private fee-paying schools. But that ain't happening soon!

Whilst you don't need to provide evidence of a parent's work record, for most contextual offers the school has to fill in an application form and verify the student is a first generation applicant (to the best of their knowledge). An applicant may want to lie, but the school doesn't really have an incentive to encourage them to - it's potentially preventing one of their MORE disadvantaged kids getting an offer.

I'm not sure about other unis, but I recently filled in a reference form for 'Access to Leeds', and open university degrees didn't count, neither did professional degrees gained part time whilst at work, or degrees earned whilst the child is in secondary education. 'First generation' generally means parent didn't have a traditional university experience, but often degrees earned through work in later life aren't counted.

A lot of universities now catch on to the postcode thing too - they ask if you're in receipt of the 16-19 bursary or free school meals, which are means tested and harder to fake! Those kids get prioritised for contextual offers over and above the ones who just live in a 'shit' postcode but have parents with well paid jobs.

I agree with amibeing some kids have such a leg up from parents and being in good schools. I have had DC who have attended both local grammar schools and a local failing comprehensive. My DC at the comprehensive definitely faced more barriers such as poor behaviours in class whereas my DC who attended grammar school were surrounded by generally motivated children with supportive parents. Although I often felt that in the comprehensive school the teachers were more skilled at engaging pupils, my DC had a worse day to day deal and would have deserved a contextual offer up against the grammar school pupils ( often privately tutored as well). Sadly this was a long time ago and these type of offers were not commonplace. However, they all attended university. We do live in a poorer postcode with antisocial behaviour and drug issues. I do think my DC and children in similar situations deserve a contextual offer.

*when they get to university.

Oh and justneed there is actually evidence that suggests that kids from state schools actually do better then they get to university. So your assumption that those with bbb are less likely to well is a load of shit quite frankly. A kid from a school that is failing in a deprived area and achieving bbb has worked incredibly hard and is probably equally as clever as the AAA kid from the posh school who has been spoon fed.

Some of you sound like you resent that kids from lower socioeconomic backgrounds are being given a chance. It's made me feel sick reading some of the comments on this thread. Do you realise how much harder kids from these backgrounds will have had to work and the barriers they will have had to overcome? I'm sure the kids being given these offers wish that they didn't need them, seriously, some of you sound jealous of under privileged kids . Check your privilege.

I have twins at Bristol. I worked very hard (and I accept cleaners etc of course work hard) to pay school fees and have always worked full time even when they were one week old babies!

That university's contextual offer system is quite a blunt instrument. The people down the road mmy son by chance met there live in a £3m house ( I had to drop his stuff of there last year - amazing house, rich people) but chose a school, on the contextual offers list. It can be a very very unfair system - there is non working housewife with her feet up, massive house, rich husband and they get contextual offers. or you get locally because of where I live both parents came over from another country - no university educaion but very bright and lots of tiger mothers - I am not sure their children particularly deserve advantages in terms of lower grades.

One of Bristol's criteria for a contextual offer is going to one of hte UK's 40% of worst performing schols - that is almost half of UK schools not the very worst comps in the country. The list is here www.bristol.ac.uk/media-library/sites/study/undergraduate/documents/English-aspiring-state-schools-2020-21-cycle.pdf

"Our contextual offer is a grade reduction of up to two grades below the standard entry requirements and is made to those from backgrounds who, generally, are less likely to come here."

As for whether people will lie about parents' education - of course some people will. I would rather my children failed at everything than that they ever lied or cheated but some familes seem to specialise in dishonesty in all aspects of their lives.

Actually OP 'first in family' isn't a target that universities are bound by at all. There are national priorities and associates targets - but this isn't one.

So when universities do target those sixth formers they're doing it because it's something they genuinely want to address.

Yes a few may lie and turn up to events not designed for them, but the alternatives would put off the very people they are trying to attract, and in reality it's not likely that many places are going to those who shouldn't be prioritised, and even less likely this affects offers.

The case of a standard offer of 2 A stars and a A being reduced to 3 Bs for contextual applicants is so unusual I'm afraid I doubt its existence. Sorry. One grade, possibly two below standard is the norm. And even then it's really only Bristol that has a consistent contextual policy.

who some universities care about it a great deal.

DD had one place that her offer was A A* A. At an offer holder day there were people who'd been given the contextual offer of BBB.
This is a huge difference. That will mean that people will think it's worth the risk.*

Those getting in with BBB on the course are at risk of not doing as well on the course as the AAA people.

I experienced this with DD, in second year college she decided not to go to uni but instead wanted to apply for degree level apprenticeships. Some of them wanted to know if the parents had been to university, I assume as this would guarantee an interview or something and show them as being inclusive and widening opportunity for the less advantaged? DD was unsure whether to put yes or no as she didn't want to miss out on the chance to get a place so she selected "don't know" on the forms even though she does know that I went. Obviously once you get to the interview stage you've got to pass it but I'm guessing the question is similar to the positive discrimination techniques used in recruitment for employment to get you further up the stages than everyone else?

There is no way for them to check this surely and they are relying on people being honest but in the field DD was applying for competition was high, thousands of candidates are whittled down for a couple of hundred places.

I didn’t go to Uni but did professional quals and am a high earner. DH also didn’t go to Uni.

DS is in yr 11 at a grammar and is hoping to do medicine. I wonder if our non Uni background will benefit him, even though he is not disadvantaged at all?

if anybody lies about something like this then they clearly need the place more than most
I don't think that's true at all. Do you think that about people who lie to get into schools either?

I think the more they put into helping people the more the knowledgeable group will exploit it, just like schools.

If I look at contextual offers. DD has just gone to university from state schools (comprehensive followed by non-selective state 6th form). Of her friends a number got contextual offers. She didn't and it's made no difference to her.

1. Went to all the same schools (from preschool up!) as dd, but they moved in year 12 to a "poorer" postcode.

1. Went to the same 6th form as her, but went to private schools from infant upwards, but lives in a "poorer" postcode.

Now I think contextual offers is a great idea. My df would have benefitted greatly from such schemes, and he would have deserved to. However from the above it looks too easy to exploit. None of them deliberately put themselves into the position of looking for it. In fact I know at least one felt rather insulted by it, and refused to consider the university that gave it.
It's too crude, and because of that, if it becomes widely known, you'll find pupils doing things like applying from grandparent address (you don't have to prove it) for a poorer postcode.

You also have it as 2 tier system at present, and to my mind it's far more than that.
How do you separate out on schools, for example:
Poor comprehensive
Good comprehensive
Grammar School
Good Private
Poor private

At the moment they're just taking off poor comprehensive. But there's also a world of difference between a good comprehensive and a grammar, or a poor private and a good private.

DD had one place that her offer was A A A. At an offer holder day there were people who'd been given the contextual offer of BBB.
This is a huge difference. That will mean that people will think it's worth the risk.

I don't know what the answer is. It's just the same as applying for schools.
I hope they don't stop trying to encourage first generation applicants, and I hope that they will continue to outreach to those who might think university is not for the likes of themselves.
But think they will have to constantly update it to stop people exploiting it. And the more hoops they put for people to jump through to get it, the more it will put off the very people they are trying to help.

Jeez, if anybody lies about something like this then they clearly need the place more than most

First generation students have been a target for widening participation initiatives for years - and rightly so.
It's not a new concept

To end my point, I wouldn't begrudge those families 'cheating' as even being 5k over the earning limit, they're still poor and could never afford tuition etc.

@crazycrofter In my area, grammar schools offer a percentage of places to PP children (lower pass marks for them too). Obv if someone has parents in professional jobs, lives in a 4-bed semi with a newish SUV in the drive, they won't be arranging anything. The parents who have wiggle room to cheat the system are the ones that are on he breadline anyway and they can qualify for free school meals by dropping their overtime in their low paid job for a few months for example.

Don't people need to submit some documentation? Isn't it cross checked? As with everything else, it's probably impossible to eliminate all dishonesty but very few people with L2 qualifications and in low paid jobs have been to uni.

It’s not possible to reach exactly the target audience and only them with these sort of schemes. It’s a similar story in Birmingham where the grammar schools give 25% of their places to pupil premium children with lower scores. Apparently you could arrange your affairs so that you qualified for free school meals for a short time (I don’t know how unless self employed maybe? And it seems a huge hassle but it’s what people claim). But apart from that there are children who were on free school meals for 3 months 5 years ago but in reality they are far from deprived.

However, I can’t think of another way to do it and at least some genuinely disadvantaged children are also helped in the process.