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Original poster

Would a bright child do well at any school?

109 replies

stubiff · 05/08/2019 13:28

Following on from my offer here

Question: Would a bright child do well at any school?

To provide information for you to make your own conclusions I wanted to look at:
Do similar pupils do better at Grammar/Selective schools.
Would similar pupils have the opportunity to do as well at an 'average' school.
Do similar pupils do worse at schools in disadvantaged areas.

Your gut reaction could be along the lines of - should do better at Grammars, could do as well at middling schools and would probably do worse at schools in deprived areas.

Data Source EPI
"Pupils attending a grammar school achieve, on average, one third of a grade higher in each of 8 GSCEs, compared with similar pupils in comprehensive schools"
"Pupils who attend grammar schools do no better than similar pupils in high performing comprehensives (those in the top 25% for value added)"

Data Source ffteducationdatalab page 26
"The child scoring highest at KS2 who goes onto a non-selective school outperforms their peer who ‘just’ passes their 11+"

Conclusion: pupils do better at Grammar but could do equally as well at decent non-selectives.

Data Source Ofsted
"Students eligible for free school meals, boys and White British students are not doing as well as other groups and make less progress from their starting points at the end of KS2."

Data Source Sutton Trust
"While high attainers overall make an average level of progress between KS2 and KS4, those from disadvantaged backgrounds fall substantially behind, with a Progress 8 score of -0.32."

Conclusion: disadvantage can have a big impact on attainment/progress.

Data Source Government
See attached graph where I created a subset of data from the Gov data. Data is school based rather than pupil based.
The plot is a bit of a splodge, rather than obviously bottom left to top right.

Conclusion: a pupil CAN attain the same progress regardless of the percentage of high prior attainers at the school.

Would a bright child do well at any school?
OP posts:
Passtherioja · 05/08/2019 14:01

A bright child? Or a focussed, determined, well-balanced child?

A "bright" child in the wrong environment (for them) might struggle to stay on track in a school that is a bit more chaotic than others however a "bright" child who is also focussed, determined, well-balanced and works hard will do well wherever they go.

MIdgebabe · 05/08/2019 13:59

Pupil can do well in any school, but the probability of pupils doing well is school dependent. So it’s worth finding the right school for your child. One that makes them happy, secure, and teaches them to their ability. For bright children, that means going beyond the basic curriculum

For example, Years ago there was a study that compared private and state pupils. All the bright private pupils achieved good grades at gcse. Only half the bright pupils achieved good grades at state schools.

This is partially offset by the fact that up to 20% of those private kids will fail to live up to expectation at university ( separate study, not following the same kids) ( personal motivation)

SO by the time they left university, around 50% of kids who we bright at 11 and went through the state system achieved well. About 80% of kids bright at 11 and went through the private system achieved well.

Note this is not saying that private is best, just demonstrating that school choice has an effect.

TinklyLittleLaugh · 05/08/2019 13:58

DD2 went to a crappy comp. She was mostly in the top sets so avoided the worst of the disruption. She was in set 3 for French and said it was an absolute zoo. (She dropped French).

Anyhow, she got 8As and 3As. I'm pretty sure she'd have got more As if she'd actually had teachers and not supply for some of her subjects. This had implications for an Oxbridge application. She didn't like school.

She then went to a fairly selective state sixth form and loved it.

Original poster
stubiff · 05/08/2019 13:54

@TeddTess, agree, but you can't really measure happiness with data!
Personally, I think a lot of 'progress' is the pupil having, and being happy in, the environment to learn.

@fatbottomgirl67, yes, the graph is GCSE P8.

OP posts:
IHeartKingThistle · 05/08/2019 13:51

I went to a crap school and did really well. I'm now a teacher. I don't think it's about being bright - loads of bright kids underachieve even in good schools. But I've always said that a good kid will do well anywhere. By that I mean has potential, works hard, has a good attitude, is nice.

OtraCosaMariposa · 05/08/2019 13:51

The key is a "decent" non-selective.

We don't have state selective education in Scotland, only the private schools select and there are no grammar schools.

However, obviously some schools perform better than others. My kids are at a high achieving state comprehensive, regularly in the top 10 state secondaries in Scotland. Their classmates are the children of doctors, lawyers, pilots, accountants - it's a professional, middle class demographic where the parents hugely support the school and their kids.

Other schools have very different catchments. A friend teaches at a school in the lowest 10% of exam results in an area of considerable deprivation, with high levels of truancy, social problems, disinterested parents and kids who don't see the point. Stick a kid in a school like that and it's a constant battle for them; they're differnet, they're a snob for doing their homework, bullied for trying hard, the teacher is dealing with behaviour for 75% of the time rather than teaching, high staff turnover.

It's all a bit pie in the sky to say an able child will achieve anywhere. An able child will find it much easier to achieve surrounded by similar, motivated children,

fatbottomgirl67 · 05/08/2019 13:50

Is this just up to GCSE? I've got 2 girls one went to ss grammar the other only scored 98% in 11+ so missed out. Both got very similar GCSE results. The difference I have noticed is the grammar girl was far better prepared for A levels/ib . The school finished the syllabus early and extended their learning. The daughter at comprehensive found gaps in her knowledge at A level. She feels she was taught to pass the exam rather than the subject at GCSE. Her A level results are out soon so too soon to see what the difference is.

Hoppinggreen · 05/08/2019 13:48

Agree Tedd my DD gets quite distressed by disruption and there is very little at her current school. A teacher at the local comp ( who knows my dd) told me to do everything I could to avoid sending her there as although it’s not a bad school overall it wouldn’t be right for her
So yes, some bright children can do as well at any school some can’t, it depends on both the school and the child

TeddTess · 05/08/2019 13:44

and what about one crucial piece of information - would my child be happy and therefore reach their potential at any school? That's the most important factor i would argue.