Can school compel a child to choose EBacc GCSE subjects?

op in my (limited, obviously) experience, if you talk to the school and promise not to shout about it, they may negotiate.

Ds2 has just done GCSEs, pretty much his entire cohort (SEN aside) has to do MFL, I was fine with him doing it, as was he, pretty much, so no worries for us. I have recently discovered that a peer of his did not do it, I think did about a few weeks of German GCSE and mum protested and he was allowed to move to Business. She felt he just wouldn't get a very good grade. I had no idea and I guess she was asked not to go on about it IYSWIM. .

OK. In that case I can see why you're upset and it is reasonable to query and see what can be done.
Either they've decided your DS should be doing an MFL (is this a comp or some form of selective school?)
Or it is a class size or setting kind of issue.

(By setting I mean they've somehow made Block A History full of 6-9 and Block B History full of 2-5, your son is an 8 but is looking at wanting to join Block B.)

What has he been given then op? If French is one of four outside the usual compulsories, can one of the others give so he can do geog and history?

Interesting points here about MFL; I taught MFL and worked in such an ace department, could be one of the reasons as many as half the cohort picked an MFL for GCSE. But yes, I agree, it's not always so well taught.

I think there is a perception that it's difficult, and in fact the new GCSE, while undoubtedly better than the ridiculous coursework-based one it replaced, is harder, and the way it was introduced has not helped this perception (tho I guess this is true to a greater or lesser extent with other subjects too). The exemplars and actual exams last year and this were certainly tough, and imagine yr 11s tell their yr 9 siblings so. Never mind that grade boundaries might reflect this, the damage is done.

In addition, not only are MFL teachers faced with "but I'm never going to go to France!" (let's hope this isn't true), there is also the undoubted fact that people elsewhere all learn English and are happy to speak it. Of course they learn it, it's the obvious choice and crucial if they want to function on an international planet, or even watch the latest movie. It's less obvious what English speakers should learn, and this fragmentation doesn't help.

All this makes me so sad. I'm just back from a trip to Vienna, I LOVED speaking my German there. I'm sure all the waiters and museum staff has fab English, but they seemed happy to speak German with me, I even had a few jokey chats with people in TL. I just wanted to offer that experience to my pupils. It's very depressing, the unceasing arrogance of those lucky enough to have English as their mother tongue

Sorry Op, a bit off topic I know!

The reason I ask is there is a difference between this being sprung on you right at the end of the summer term, and it being clear since Feb that 'all set 1 and 2 pupils must do a language'.

Similarly to understand whether this is being told he 'must do a language' or 'selected options not possible so we've substituted French'

Twig How were options done? (See my earlier post 08:11).

Bubbles Because some schools are insisting some pupils do an MFL. They don't insist on the other subjects you list being taken at GCSE.

I agree MFL gives a broad education. Which is why it is offered in KS3. But a creative/performing arts subject would also be broad, but very few schools insist on one of them.

The MFL is insisted on because of league tables and the EBacc measure. In my view it is too late. They need to sort out primary teaching of MFL so everyone is going up to secondary with some level of competence & confidence.

My DD1 has no primary MFL at all. We still viewed MFL at secondary as part of a broad education. Its even more vital now!

I fully understand some DC will struggle but why is it always MFL that’s not pursued? They don’t do computer science at primary but DC pick that up. And ditto business studies, sociology and economics which are taken at GCSE with no primary teaching or even secondary teaching before the course starts. On MN, it’s always MFL that has to go.

Its just not reality that a student can pick ten GCSEs they 'love',

Was going to post something similar. unless you go to a private school that is happy to timetable whatever and accommodate a class of tiny numbers, most secondary school students have constraints on which GCSEs they can do. DD has just picked GCSEs and ended up having to drop a subject she'd really like to do. I'm sure that's common for many students.

I suspect primary teaching of languages has always been pretty woeful, but the anti-MFL feeling I think is new and it seems to be to do with a perception that languages are hard and that good grades are harder to come by than in other subjects (which is, I think, confirmed by the stats). There is more pressure on children to get high grades these days, and they don't want to sacrifice a possible 7/8/9 in another subject for a 4/5/6 in a MFL.

At my bog standard comp in the 1970s, all those doing O levels were expected to do at least one language. I did two, which was by no means unusual. No one cared much about grades in those days and I was pleased with my C for German.

In my day it was sciences that were seen as difficult subjects (especially chemistry and physics) and we were only required to do one science O level. Teaching of science at my primary school was not woeful, it was non existent (except for 'nature study')!

he wants to study both Geography AND History

Most school have their compulsory subjects and still allow students two subjects of their own choice. Why can't he pick history/geography as one of them? If that's not possible it must be because the school can't accommodate pupils learning 2 humanities.

Its just not reality that a student can pick ten GCSEs they 'love', if he loves History that much surely it is entirely possible to study it outside of school.

I suspect there is also something to do with there being such a vast choice of films, pop music etc in English there is no need to watch / listen to stuff in other languages.

Bubbles

Primary level teaching of MFL is, with exceptions, woeful. This sets our kids to be behind our counterparts before they even get to secondary.
Then because 'the rest of the world' speaks English, it isn't so valued anyway.
We don't have an obvious language to learn so the focus is diluted anyway, and schools teach what they can get teachers for, rather than any other reason.

My 2 DCs are completely opposite. One did 2 MFL for GCSE, continued one afterwards, and has recently done a course in a third.
My second struggles with English SPaG and poor clarity of speech. She has learned next to nothing in 3 years of Secondary French (and 5 years at primary before that).
I helped DD1 a lot, but I'd rather spend time with DD2 on English.

Some schools are not keen on two humanities when one is needed for EBacc. It’s why they insist on a Language. However can his choices not be accommodated with the MFL and having the second humanity as a choice? Or is this absolutely impossible?

Yes, I’m sure languages aid learning and understanding about others. Why is it always MFL DC want to drop? Every GCSE thread is about DC who cannot manage a MFL? Why? Other countries have DC who persevere and it’s considered important. Here it’s not remotely valued by many. Why?

Twig Can he not do both and French and drop something else?

How were options done?
Was it
A) free choice but now he can't have what he chose
B) blocked, and he chose from each block but isn't being allowed (due to numbers?)
C) Constrained free choice (you must pick under these rules)

Schools will always have constraints whether it is to ensure balance, timetabling, or keeping league tables happy. Some constraints are more reasonable than others.

How 'good' is your DS at French? What grade might he expect to get if he tries?

Why is a MFL more valid than History?

I never said it was, its not one or the other. History is an option that a student can choose alongside whatever MFL they decide to study. Children who are able to should learn another language just like the rest of the world does.

*setting = better

This is really sad.

The school could continue with this insistence and your DC get a poor grade or your DC do what they want and enjoy and do really well. Which would look better for the school ?

My D.C. follow the Bacc and with DC2 I was prepared for a fight with them as D.C. was adamant about not doing a MFL but wanted to do geography and history. School were fine -I suppose they saw that D.C. was setting on those subjects and not on MFL.

I hope it works out for you.

Yes of course they can, and many do.

Whether it is a good idea is another matter. Ime (and I was an MFL teacher) it is counter productive to have a class of students who don't want to do the subject and would rather be in business/drama /tech.

OP it must be worth at least discussing it with the school, they may be open to a compromise.