EPQ or D of E gold?

He should do whichever he would most enjoy. A levels are intense, an EPQ requires lots of extra study. Great if he enjoys immersing himself in his subject and working to his own direction.

But if he does no other active extra curricular activities, DoE might be refreshing.

The Oxbridge admissions talks we attended were emphatic: they have no interest in extra curricular stuff, just grades and a commitment to the subject. So extra reading round the subject etc.

DofE With explorers and EPQ at school!
He’ll get a lot more out of doing D of E with his mates in explorers than doing it through school, it’s likely to be a lot cheaper too! An EPQ for a solid STEM student is a nice balance if he has the capability to do it, but not at the detriment of getting good A-levels and retaining a healthy balance of other activities such as explorers ( where he’ll learn some very useful life skills & hopefully have amazing adventures )

I think he should consider which would he enjoy and what skills they would develop. These things shouldn't all be about what will help with university applications.

I agree with this ^
DofE won't help with University applications but it will help with job applications and interviews. EPQ may well make a small difference to a University application but won't be mentioned ever, after that.

However, as he is an Explorer, then he can continue to work through the DofE with them. Indeed, even when he is at University - you have until you are 25 to complete the Gold. It is about so much more than a university place.

Why not do the EPQ at school and the DofE with Scouts as my dd is doing.?

DofE is a fantastic thing and I have noticed that it has helped my DD become more mature and resourceful. I would recommend it to anyone.

However , I can't help thinking that a university would be more interested in an EpQ especially if it is in a subject you are applying to at university.

Let him choose to do what he wants to do.

DS (just finished Yr 11) is a good way into his Gold Award already because he enjoys doing it and finds the skills it teaches him valuable. He knows that it won't count for anything in terms of UCAS but equally, PPs are right about its value on a CV. I have the Gold Award and have been asked about it in every job interview I've been in.

I think you should let him choose. Ultimately it's him who's going to have to do whichever option for the next 2 years. A good EPQ grade can help with uni admissions, but if he does poorly, this still has to be passed on to the uni and might harm his chances of getting in (e.g. If he's a near miss on results day). Whereas if he ends up dropping DofE, then nobody ever has to know.

A good EPQ can definitely help with uni admissions, both formally in terms of a lower offer, and informally by tipping the balance towards that candidate over another- but this only really works if he's enthusiastic about doing one and is going to do well in it.

Slightly OT but if you research working at summer camps in the USA you’ll see that it costs in the region of £500 for everything (including VISA costs, transportation and insurance). If an 18-21 year old can’t raise that by themselves then there’s a problem.

It always amazes me that people think young people are gifted these opportunities on a plate. The great majority work hard to get themselves there, without relying on any kind of parental support. Once they get to camp it will be the hardest job they ever do but the skills they get from it last a lifetime.

This is not a gap yaaaaar type of thing.

A lot of colleges actively discourage a 4th A level now, especially as you would be expected to hit a predicted grade for it, even if unrelated to your degree course.

I don’t think D of E helps any more than doing relevant work or volunteering. Or even having knowledge about a hobby which is interesting to other people. It’s highly regulated and perhaps people who think outside the box and are self starters can be of greater value.

I’m not sure parents paying for flights to the USA and facilitating summer camp work should be a deciding factor in getting a job!

DofE will help with job applications and interviews - both short-term and when he's applying for jobs after university. I have students return every year and tell me that DofE is often discussed favourably at job interviews. Also helps develop some useful habits for work life balance - physical activity, skill and volunteering.

EPQ
He can also volunteer of do other extra curriculars as well though

A 4th A Level is a hell of a lot of work in comparison to an EPQ!

What about a fourth A level in a foreign language or something else that show breadth of ability? I’d go for that well before EPQ.

If it’s purely for university entrance if he’s targeting top universities then EPQ all the way.

If he’s likely to get first choice University without it then let him do DofE. So few people actually get their gold award that it carries some sway when it comes to getting a job.

Before children I worked in the city and would hire a large number of graduates annually. They all had the same CV. Three good A-levels, minimum 2:1 degree from Russell Group University. I had to beg recruitment agents to list their extra curricular stuff on their CVs as a way of differentiation.

I would ALWAYS put people who have worked at summer camp in the USA, got gold DofE or committed properly to something outside of academia at the top of the list for interview. I met a World Tiddlywinks Champion, a title winning male ballroom dancer, numerous people who played sport regularly just because they enjoyed it, and many many people who carried on their DofE volunteering because they enjoyed it.

Sure, it won’t help with university admissions but it may well help him get a job upon graduation.

DS1 has done both ( he’s just finished A levels) - it was a lot of hard work with 3 A levels though and he hasn’t yet finished the DoE. At Newcastle open day he was told that his high provisional EPQ mark would probably get him a Psychology place at AAB instead of AAA - he’s applying after A levels.

DD2s draft EPQ was one of her submitted pieces of work as part of her Cambridge application, the interviewers went through it line by line with her, getting her to justify all her planning, research and revision. They didn't care that she was part way through gold DofE.

OTOH, Dd1 got her first post uni job because she had done gold DofE, her academic qualifications got her to interview, and the DofE got her the job (as well as a love of nice stationery!)

They're both useful, but for different things I think, EPQ more helpful for uni application, DofE for job.

The EPQ is useful for humanities if you are applying to universities whichbinterview, as it gives you something to talk about. Some universities will drop a single grade in their offer, but many won't. DD's college encourages you to add an EPQ to your 3 A levels unless you are taking FM as a 4th. I don't think the college has ever suggested DofE as an alternative.

Just to confirm, in case of uncertainty, you can do gold DofE with only bronze or with no previous award, not just after doing bronze and silver, but it does require an extra 6 months. One of mine will (probably) be doing gold after having done bronze, the other if he does it will do silver then possibly gold - in both cases that's the way their schools choose to run it.

If my eldest was being told EPQ or DofE I suspect she'd still want to do DofE and I'd be insisting she be given the opportunity to do the EPQ as well ... But I'm crossing my fingers that she finds a really good topic for the EPQ that really reflects her interests, as that will be useful. It may provide a stepping stone / initial material for "this is how much I want to study course X". What course X will be is a work in progress ... (For her the possible alternative was a 4th A level which I'd initially liked to have seen her doing)

Another thing to consider is that an EPQ attracts UCAS points and can tip you into the "Yes" pile if it's a tight call. As others have confirmed, DofE is pretty much redundant as far as uni applications are concerned.

As a mum of a STEM boy I agree wholeheartedly that the EPQ teaches them invaluable independent research and academic writing skills.

I agree with @TeenTimesTwo. He should do what he would enjoy.
I had heard that D of E weighs more than CCF, as it supposedly teaches kids to think for themselves. But he must have done bronze and silver already.
I think anything that differentiates one candidate from another can only be a good thing. What does he want to do?

DofE is a bigger, or at least more varied, commitment. It involves a much wider range of skills and activities (and so I personally think it's a more interesting qualification).

The EPQ can be hard work but it's essentially an extended essay - potentially good experience if his other subjects are all STEM and don't involve essay writing, but he'd only be developing academic skills, rather than broader personal qualities.

Obviously your son may decide his academic skills are more in need of development than other things, but it's worth considering which he'll find more valuable in the long run.

Bear in mind if he hasnt done silver then he'll have to spend 18 months on either physical or skill section.

Dd had been told thelat she has to do an epq, d of e is voluntary.

Gold is expensive so not sure whether she'll do it as well. I think it would do her good though as shes anxious and a bit shy so the volunteering and camping would be good for her.

I do think DS would be well advised to do something where writing is required. Few Stem people get away without coherent writing in their work and at university. Only do D of E if the volunteering is directly relatable to the degree. This means it’s useful. It’s not if it’s just an extra activity. The EPQ is better if he can tailor it effectively to his degree subject. Some stem degrees don’t have particularly onerous A level requirements so check these out and decide if his time is better spent on his A levels!

I think he should consider which would he enjoy and what skills they would develop. These things shouldn't all be about what will help with university applications.

EPQ - develop research skills and to find out about something outside the curriculum. Potentially useful as pre-skills for university. Difficult to motivate if he isn't all that interested.

DofE Gold - camping & expedition, volunteering, activity, skill. Does he have things he would like to do in those areas that this will give him the impetus to do? Does him being part way through bronze impact eligibility to do this at all? Will he enjoy the walking/camping or hate every minute of it?