Shocked at university entry requirements

The National Physical Laboratory in Teddington have an apprenticeship scheme for starters.

NPL has level 3 apprenticeships.
Chartered Physicist requires Level 7.

It’s a decent grammar school so I wonder if the teaching is just not good enough

It's teaching. We have two grammar schools in our town, both rank similarly overall in the national league tables. Whilst most subjects are pretty comparable in terms of GCSE and A level results (Both put results by grade/subject on their websites). The one my son goes to shows far lower English and History results and very high for Physics and Chemistry. The other grammar shows lower Maths and Biology but higher English and history. From what my son says, generally the English and History depts are shambolic, both heads of dept are "old boys" who are close to retirement and just aren't moving with the times, and are recruiting like minded teachers, so their depts just aren't progressing.

I used figures from here: www.bstubbs.co.uk/a-lev.htm

I picked maths because it flatters my argument. Things do not look so bad for some other subjects. I think A level maths really has got easier.

A* & A now in Chemistry map to A, B and high C in old money.
A* & A now in Biology map to A, B and in old money.

TheFrendo maths isn't necessarily a good example as last year it was still modular so possible to juggle papers between maths & FM plus resit papers sat at the end of first year. Also it's a subject which tends to drop strugglers.

Not disagreeing with the sentiment only the example.

Of course the grade boundaries had to change with the expansion of the university sector. With not enough students getting the grades required, there would be no expanded university sector.

So what is a current D worth?

Back in the day, early before 1987, A levels were norm referenced.

A 10%
B 15%
C 10%
D 15%
E 20%
O 20% (O level pass)
U 20%

In maths last year 42% got an A* or A

This means that some getting A in 2018 would have got a D pre-1987.

Some getting a B in 2018 would not have even got an E under the old system.

Virtually no universities interview. They don’t take much notice of other achievements either. Exeter just couldn’t fill the course! There are not enough Physics applicants so they decided to offer him the place. Oxford wouldn’t have needed to lower their grades. It’s all about bums on seats. However if you go into a top university with lower grades, don’t expect it to be easy. DD noticed this with MFL. They are very short of students so offer places to those with lower grades but then have to provide skills courses and study course because the students can struggle. It then tends to be stressful. If you have lower grades, choose the right course for you.

Haven’t read the whole thread but look at the universities which offer a lower grade if the student has completed an EPQ. A lot of them seem to do this now.

Well grades are not the same as years ago are they? A quick glance at entry requirements will tell you that. A D grade is not really relevant now as a D really isn’t good enough for Physics or Engineering if it’s in Maths or Physics. The student will struggle and would be best advised to do a foundation course.

We have so many STEM courses, there is something for everyone. There are more practical degrees which are accessible with lower grades. They might limit access to the highest level of professional qualifications but they do provide the basis for a good career.

DS had an offer of AAB from Exeter; in the end he got ABC and they accepted him (Physics). Its also about the character, out of school achievements and interview. Also, it's a really tough course and they need evidence that the student will cope.

My understanding is the reason you have such a differential in grade requirements for different tiered unis is because at the higher end a lot of self study is required, so you need to be at a certain level to be able o do the course or you will struggle. At the lower end then there is a lot of hand holding and spoon feeding, and because of that support a candidate who is less able will be able to succeed. Hence why a degree from a top tiered uni is perceived as more valuable to many higher end employers, than one from a lower tiered. Because getting the degree was basically much, much harder.

The grade requirements being dropped on the day is only relevant if you have a conditional offer, or if there are places in clearing on the course you want, many courses for many unis have no places in clearing. As a pp said, it really is a competition.

The predicted grades is what unis base offers on, if a student doesn't achieve the predictions the uni might still give them a place, but it depends on how other students performed and how the student compares.

But ultimately picking a uni is about understanding how they teach and what is required of the student. Because once you get into second and third year, it can be very tough indeed.

Engineering and Physics are so mathematical, that if you can’t achieve a top grade in them, you probably shouldn’t be doing it.

Gosh, no wonder we're struggling to recruit physics teachers if that's the message that is being sent out. I'm a school governor and most of the teachers we interview have mixed grades in their specialist subjects. We never get any applications from physicists, so our physics is taught by biologists and chemists. They don't inspire students to become physicists, and students probably don't achieve as highly in physics as they would if they had a specialist teacher. Vicious circle!

In contrast, back in the eighties, I got a B for physics A level, and then a first class degree from a Russell Group uni. One of my friends got onto the same course through clearing with a D, yet he also got a first class degree!

Unis need to lower their boundaries if they want to get people (especially girls who are under-represented) through the door.

It is not currently possible to take an apprenticeship route to become a physicist.

Not true. The National Physical Laboratory in Teddington have an apprenticeship scheme for starters.

@fishonabicycle where and when did you DSD get into Bio Med with CCC?
OP as far as I can see from open days certain Unis stick to their guns and others have more flexibility. It's a minefield for the hardest courses.

It depends on the uni, a friends dd was offered aaa and got aaa and was rejected.*

And depends on the results gained by the others who were offered places. It's all a competition for the places. If the Uni can fill their course with others who've gained AAA then they're going to do that. It's when not enough have gained the AAA that they'll then look to fill the places by offering to lower grade achievers (if close or interviewed well) and/or going to clearing.

It depends on the uni, a friends dd was offered a*aa and got aaa and was rejected.

BeardedMum I don't think anyone has so far said that all 8s and 9s at GCSE last summer should absolutely not translate to AAB let alone ABB next summer. Something is very wrong and I've read what you've written about the teaching issue but this is incredibly unfair on your DD. She's clearly able and should go to a very good uni. If that means a year longer in sixth form then that will probably be a year well spent - the school needs to provide answers as to why the trajectory is so poor, and then do something about it.

I think.it is a reflection on the introduction of the A and more students getting A and A. Im old enough to remember Russell group unis offering BBB or even BBC even for popular courses. Now, the standard offer is AAA, which was only ever an Oxbridge or Medicine or Vet Sci in my day. Onmy one of my school friends (Cam applicant) needed that. Most students now have their aspirational offer as AAA or AAB. And, then, as now, (im now working in education) unis adjust on results day. Forever grateful to my uni offering me a place with my AAD grades when i was meant to get BBB!

Sorry, in Maths and Physics, really.

Engineering and Physics are so mathematical, that if you can’t achieve a top grade in them, you probably shouldn’t be doing it.

Apprenticeships can be hugely competitive. Also they can be tied to the local industry which will mean choice is limited.

Also be wary of Apprenticeships. They typically put grads on a BEng at their partner university. This is the slow route to being Chartered and they may not even care if employees get Chartered or not. Therefore top salaries are not achievable. MEng undergrad is best right from the start if your A levels are good enough.

Also plenty of ex Polys run excellent Engineering degrees with a year in industry. You don’t need the highest grades to access very good courses with excellent employment prospects.