Life at St Paul's Boy's In Barnes

A year on, I’m one such parent, with a child in a local primary school having been offered a place at SPJS 11+. The admissions process has been very sparse in contact and content compared to Latymer & Hampton, and so in this vacuum I took to the forums to try to weed through the vitriol and find parents with current children at the school to give an insight. Thank for your comment on this now older thread. Two years on, it has somewhat put my mind a little at rest!

Hi OP
My take may be out of date but what I would say is that having been at one of our more competitive universities, I did note tons of people from St. Paul’s there and took against the school on the basis of them - they were uniformly smug despite often being fairly mediocre by the standards of the institution. Certainly none took the glittering prizes. Danger is schools like that are v good at stuffing people through a levels and making them look like oxbridge material but when they get there turns out they’re not all that. Admissions tutors to blame of course.
If your ds got in from state with no tutoring I doubt he’ll be one of these! But might be worth keeping an eye on any burgeoning sense of entitlement. Can be pretty insufferable.

Wayland- the last comment I’m going to make back to you is that the schools can only select from those that apply. In Dds year 8% are bursary funded but out of those only 3 from state schools. As with the boys school the bursary ceiling is £110K gross per year, meaning that parents that can afford private prep schools may also qualify for bursaries therefore bursaries don’t necessarily reach the low income children I think you are talking about. Spgs does outreach summer schools aimed at state primary school children to try to create opportunities for families to experience learning in an independent school and perhaps to consider applying via the bursary scheme. Could they do more , possibly, the school talks of wanting to reach a 20% bursary target, but as a small school those bursaries are funded through fundraising.
There is still a lot of inverted snobbery towards independent schools and “ the type” ie rich stereotype, of children who attend. Inevitably some amazing children from state schools who would thrive in an academic independent school will never have that chance simply because their parents will not apply.

MN164- at the no blazer all the way. Yes... even in mid winter! But the shirt sleeves would be neatly rolled :) that has changed thankfully. Complete reversal with Dd some days I think she is wearing sleepwear

@Wayland

A prospective parent is looking for advice from "current parents". Current parents have given their experience and knowledge of the school which will extend to a good understanding of what happens to the years groups their sons are in.

I am still baffled by how you think your opinion is of any relevance to the original poster's question given you have no experience, evidence or anything else regarding a school you seem to have no relationship with.

Please ask yourself how helpful your responses are to a prospective parent given the above.

You are just coming across as wilfully ignorant now, Wayland. I'd give up before digging the hole any deeper if I were you.

Wayland- how on earth can you quantify your statement re teachers “ They are generally very good in terms of teacher quality” what are you comparing to, you have no first hand experience of either school!

WorkingItOutAsIGo

But Wayland, why do you keep saying so formally ‘we have no information on drop out rates’ etc etc. I just gave you some!

They were only anecdotes. We need full comparable statistics regarding the schools in question.

But Wayland, why do you keep saying so formally ‘we have no information on drop out rates’ etc etc. I just gave you some! My DS who is sitting next to me has told me that 2 boys out of his year have left in three years, neither for academic reasons. Same experience with my other DC.

As far as exam entries go, I told you that everyone is entered for everything but you can check for yourself by looking at published exam performance. Not at a PC now but if you check say the number of declared gcse results for the subjects that everyone takes like maths and English, you can compare that with the year group size to reassure yourself that everyone is entered for everything and there is no massaging. Year group size info for reference: 110 at SPGS and at SPS usually around 186.

@Wayland

"As we have no information on drop out rates or non-registration rates for examinations for SPGS and SPS, we just don't know either way."

"And so my comments were more about the sorts of students who will be attending these schools, rather than the schools themselves."

I suspect you have no or little information on either of these points as you are not a parent or member of staff at the school - please tell me if I'm wrong. Others on this thread are parents and have good information on these points which they have shared. What is the value of your contribution to thread and prospective parents?

@GirlGone "My DS is now in senior school and he takes longer over his appearance than Dd- especially the hair"

You are right, some of the older boys have realised their appearance matters a bit (perhaps as the social scene with females starts).

My 15 year old might be on the cusp of that, but from 11 to 15 it's been muddy shoes, untucked ink covered shirts, no tie, no blazer all the way ... not a moment spent on hair!

I like that the school isn't stuff and strict and that its the boys who decide to smarten themselves up. Other schools we know give boys detentions for incorrect tie lengths .....

Hello,

I just want to clear up some misconceptions regarding my posts about SPGS and SPS.

Firstly, I have not in any way suggested that these are bad schools, or even that they are mediocre schools. They are generally very good in terms of teacher quality and facilities, in some ways exemplary.

The point I was trying to make is that these schools depend on fee-payers, and so therefore it will be illogical for them to not admit some full-fee-paying students who do not meet their ideal academic criteria, considering that they make £26,000 a year with every full-fee-paying day student.

Nonetheless, these schools have been trying to provide more bursaries for those really deserving cases, and this is highly commendable. I'm sure these schools would love to be able to admit the brightest students regardless of their ability to pay fees. But they would need state-funding for this and our politicians would need to lose their current hostility to selective state schools.

And so my comments were more about the sorts of students who will be attending these schools, rather than the schools themselves.

Also, I did not accuse these schools of shady practices. May I repeat what I said previously: As we have no information on drop out rates or non-registration rates for examinations for SPGS and SPS, we just don't know either way.

I just stated that in general, league table performance doesn't give a full picture of a schools performance, and that there are many ways in which any school can artificially boost its league table performance.

I hope this clears up any misunderstandings.

Regards,

Wayland

With Dd at Spgs 1 girl left for mental health and 3-4 due to family relocation overseas. A few do leave after gcse to go to a Westminster , Kings for a coed sixth form

One in DS year was suggested to leave after GCSE year but that was due to other behaviour!

As for not entering boys for exams or chucking them out after GCSEs, that's complete nonsense - in my DS's year, one left to go boarding because home was somewhat chaotic and one left in order to do photography A level elsewhere. No one was purged.

I can't help wanting to counter the obvious untruths being bandied about even though it's clearly pointless in terms of Wayland. Googling this type of thing quite often throws up MN threads and I can imagine someone stumbling on threads of this type and thinking 'oh no, that sounds awful' when in fact most of Wayland's posts are a farrago of lies, ignorance and attempts to muddy the waters (like the suggestion of massaging exam figures as debunked by WorkingItOutAsIGo).

OP congratulations to your DS and I hope he has a wonderful time at the school.

There really isn’t any ongoing tutoring so don’t worry about that. The boys take the work in their stride and there’s plenty of support if they need it. Plenty of time for activities too, but school activities will begin to be very important, especially if your son likes sport or drama or music.

As far as Wayland’s comments go - almost every child who enters SPS or SPGS stays there the whole way through. There is NO massaging of exam entries at all - all children are entered for all the subjects. The results are what they are shown as. Wayland seems to be trying to make a case that these schools are average and they are not - of course there are some relatively less able or motivated children at each, but the teaching is fast paced and entertaining and able children are stretched. And as for the ‘rich kids are stupid’ trope - there are indeed rich families there but often they are rich because the parents are smart and have earned their riches. Not much inherited wealth there. Some of my DCs richest friends have also been the smartest! And really nice too.

Bursaries are a huge thing at SPS: they go up to household income of £120,000. The aim is that no boy should be deprived of the education because of money.

I gave up on this discussion as It is basically speaking to a brick (ill-informed and incorrect) wall. Wayland is indeed making extremely strongly the point of high fees, and I would not be surprised if s/he is the reiteration of that poster FlumePlume is referring to. The rate of rise of fees in light of normal incomes is reasonable, but the rest of the allegations made against these two schools are baffling in their lack of correspondence to reality.

In terms of the suggestion to homeschool academic children instead of sending them to SPS or SPGS, s/he is truly not getting the fact that the thing which makes these schools worth the fees for the parents with the choice of these schools are the things these schools provide outside the classroom - things which educate the child and develop them in a manner which just schooling will not. It is sad that Wayland does not understand that the point of education is far more than exam results and university destinations.

DD said at the time that every Paulina she knew of who had applied to Tiffin Girls had been offered a place there. I would be interested to hear from any Tiffin parents if it works the other way round too! I suspect there is a very high level of correlation between the two sets of results.

Wayland I’ve been following your points with interest, and I take your point about the high fees at these schools making them increasingly less accessible to the professional middle classes (it’s a point that one particular poster made strongly on an SPGS thread a few years ago).

However, I don’t think your argument that they’re no longer academically highly selective holds water. Glaciferous (on another thread) said that there are quite a few girls (not all, many won’t have applied) at SPGS who got also had Tiffin offers, which is the super-selective state grammar benchmark that you’re comparing against. I don’t know how many would have HB offers, too, but I would be surprised if there weren’t any.

I'm not disputing that these schools will have some very bright students, often cherry-picked through their bursary system, and these will be the ones they enter for the Olympaid competitions.

All Y7 and Y8 students at SPGS are entered for the maths challenge (and I imagine it is similar at the boys' school). It is not a cherry picking thing. The highest performers in the country continue to the Olympiad and the next highest performers to the kangaroo round. At least try to get your actual facts right. The selection for the Olympiad, such as it is, is entirely on test scores. It is state schools where there will be selection of who is allowed to take it, as DD's friends who attend state schools can confirm.

Wayland- there’s no point in trying to debate this with you when you clearly are prejudiced against private education.
I get it that you feel these kids are entitled/ not deserving but you simply don’t cut it if you are not academically capable at these schools.
Maybe you can’t comprehend that you can get academically excellent kids, who are humble from affluent backgrounds.
You are right however in saying expensive selective schools are not the only option. Bright, motivated kids will thrive anywhere and in the long run secondary education has little bearing on adult success. I’m not saying it’s fair but life isn’t a level playing field and as parents we all want the best for our kids to enable them to reach their full potential and to enjoy the journey along the way.

Mominatrix

Hello Mominatrix, let me answer some of your points.

If you are claiming that these schools are not very good, with mediocre teaching and meh results due to having to take not very academic but rich children, surely their academic results would have suffered?

No, they are generally very good in terms of teacher quality and facilities.

Additionally, if what you say is correct, then the results of the St Paul's would be far exceeded by the super selective schools which are in the periphery of London and accessible to a good number of children who choose to instead go to St Paul's. However, a quick look at the results of the grammar schools in London compared to those of SPGS and SPS don't support your statement.

It's true that the results of those who do graduate at SPGS and SPS are among the best in the country. However, we have no information about the percentage of students at these schools who don't graduate, i.e. who drop out, or who are simply not put forward for the examinations because they wouldn't make the grade. League table performance doesn't give a full picture of a schools performance, and there are many ways a school can artificially boost their league table performance, usually at the expense of their students.

I'm not accusing SPGS and SPS of shady practices, we have no evidence of this, but on the other hand, we have no information on drop out rates or non-registration rates for examinations at these schools. So we just don't know either way.

Additionally, the extracurricular results of the students at the schools (Maths Olympaid, Chemistry Olympiad, Physics Olympiad and other academic competitions) would show that the output of both the Boys and Girl's schools remains quite impressive.

I'm not disputing that these schools will have some very bright students, often cherry-picked through their bursary system, and these will be the ones they enter for the Olympaid competitions.

Lastly, the schools offer an academic child a peer group of similar academic children, high expectations, support from the staff and administration, as well as a great array of extracurriculars to make certain that the child also has a balance in life beyond just school.

I've not suggested that these schools don't generally try to do the best with the students they have, as many schools do, and that the staff don't generally have their students' best interests at heart. I know they also generally offer a wide range of extracurricular opportunities, and that these are often charged as extras, on top of already astronomical fees.

If these schools are not ones you would recommend to an academic child, I am curious to know which schools you would recommend?

You should look at all the state schools that are near to where you live to see if they are any good. If not, you should consider homeschooling. One does not need to be in school these days to learn, when you can watch lessons from a computer screen at home and do online tests. Private schools are so expensive nowadays that they should really only be considered as a last resort.

Wayland

Wealth alone can’t buy you a place, there are plenty of instances where siblings are rejected.