Appeal

Good luck for your appeal meeting today OP.

Sorry, I have kind of a general question but it is prompted by one of the points the school made so hopefully it won't derail your thread.

If a school has children with SEN with 1-1 support in the class, does the physical space of the extra adult feature in classroom size calculations?

Thank you! I have spoken to the school about admission numbers and all they said was to refer to this years admission policy on school website. It only tells me that last year the pan was 90 and they accepted 108.

It is not the overall number that is the key issue but the number admitted to the year group in year 7. If that is at PAN or above then the school is able to make a case that they are full. Obviously the fact that there appears to be lots of space across the school (392 when 680 can be accommodated is your latest figures) does somewhat negate the school complaining to much about overcrowding but they can presumably show they are full in year 7.
I am somewhat confused by the different numbers that you have posted for having been admitted to year 7, what the PAN is and what the numbers are across the school and the formal net capacity of the school. You do need to get these confirmed as they are the heart of their case.

I'm waiting for school appeal date. The schools capacity is 680 with current numbers 392 , so why are we on waiting list if they are able to accommodate more ?

The first point is irrelevant. You don't know what went into recruiting the new staff. Bringing up points like that deflect from any valid points.

The high proportion of PP and SEN students means there is a far higher burden on resources. The school are demonstrating that they've already got more than enough to deal with and cannot take any further students.

That's a pretty standard argument. All schools will say there are funding and staffing issues (because there are!)

Looking at your numbers again, assuming they are current and not for Sept, they will be losing a year of 163 and gaining one of 180 (at least, have they said what the current number of forecast year 7s is?) so they will have 898 pupils on roll in 7-11 in sept.

Good questions to ask would be how have they managed with the 181 year they already have, because this would suggest they can do it if they have to. You need to persuade a panel that the prejudice to them of doing so is less than the prejudice to your child of attending.

So what’s your response?
Given all their concerns, why should they also take your child?

No, that doesn't make any difference. The waiting list comes into play if the school is below PAN in the year for which the OP wants a place. At appeal it plays no part whatsoever. If the appeal panel decide the school can cope with additional pupils they are required to admit the appellants with the best cases, NOT take people off the waiting list or use the waiting list criteria to decide which appeals should succeed.

“The waiting list only comes into play if the school is below PAN.”

Yes, but the OP is claiming that the school is below PAN. Though not for the year in question. So thereby, it seems, lies the difference.

That does though depend on the appeal, some schools have a group stage 1 in which the amount of flexibility in the numbers is addressed and then an individual stage 2 in which the need for that child is addressed. In a group stage 1 only one person might raise the issue but any of the children applying might benefit. My understanding is that it should also be the same when the stage 1 and 2 are combined in individual appeals. So Mrs A might raise an issue which demonstrates that there is potentially room in the school for two more children, but on balance the appeal panel decide that child C and E have demonstrated the most need for those places, so although Mrs A raised it, her child will not benefit. That is why although the issue of numbers should be raised, the OP might do better to find further ways which demonstrate why her child should be offered a place at that particular school, rather than pinning their hopes on a numbers game, especially if there is a group stage 1 or there are likely to be lots of appeals.

You need to do both. It isn't either/or. You need to convince the appeal panel that the disadvantage to the school of taking an additional pupil is low as that makes it easier to win. You also need to convince them that your child will be disadvantaged if not admitted to this school.

In my observations of schools near here then going over by 1 might indicate that that one student had a really good case or was an excepted student. Schools who take a number of pupils on appeal tend to add one child to each class so in a six class entry they might take six students. I am sure that isn't the case everywhere but it might mean that it is hard to win an appeal unless they are not particularly oversubscribed. Even if you can convince them that the school can take more, there is no guarantee that it will be your child whom they will take. I wouldn't read too much into the numbers and concentrate on the reasons why that school is the best school for your child.

Yes, in the vast majority of cases the appeal panel will decide that there is some prejudice to the school from having to admit additional pupils. The appellant needs to minimise that. Things like the school being under capacity help. But it is rare for an appeal panel to decide that there would be no prejudice at all from admitting another pupil.

Yes, appeals mean it is over PAN already.

It doesn't magically make more workstations for pupils in that class or make extra time for the teacher to mark work. Very easy for the school to say it would disadvantage them.

Have you seen the school's case yet, OP?

Being under PAN in others years doesn't help your appeal though

Yes it does.

If the school was under PAN in the year the OP wants they would have to admit her child and there would be no need for an appeal. The school is always full to PAN in the year in question when there is an appeal. Being under PAN in other years means the school is under capacity, which makes it harder for them to claim they are so full that they can't cope with any more pupils.

Being under PAN in others years doesn't help your appeal though, OP. It is the PAN for the year you want that matters.

You need to show that the disadvantage to your child is greater than the disadvantage to the school of taking an extra pupil. Saying they have space in others years does not show that. Your child is not in those years.

If it is a case of ‘there is space for one more’ surely it would go to the next person on the waiting list according to the admissions criteria

Not in an appeal situation. If the appeal panel decides that the school can handle an additional pupil without any issues even though it is full up to PAN they must ignore the waiting list and award the place to whichever appellant has the best case. The waiting list only comes into play if the school is below PAN.

If it is a case of ‘there is space for one more’ surely it would go to the next person on the waiting list according to the admissions criteria?

The potential to fit one more in becomes relevant when the appeal panel has to weigh up the relative disadvantages to both school and pupil . “This pupil needs a school where there is an after-school Mandarin Club / specialist LaCrosse coach / offers 2 MFL at GCSE / specialist dyslexia support v This school will have to make staffing or space adjustments to fit more in the classrooms”.

Any PAN for the 6th form will be for pupils that are admitted from other schools.
To set the numbers in context the PAN is 180 for every year group, the numbers quoted by OP are actually the numbers in each of the year groups. If the PAN is 180 then the number of pupils in years 7 to 11 could be 900. In most schools any sixth form is usually averaging about 2/3rds of the pupils in a year group, which would suggest 120 in year 12 and 120 in year 13 from the school. Whilst the school can set minimum standards for entering the sixth form, the reality is that pupils already in the school will always be admitted if they meet the minimum standard. Then they are allowing up to another 30 extra pupils from outside the school which then means that the 6th form could be 300 in total.
If years 7 to 11 currently have 881 in them, they are expecting 180 in year 7 in September and have potentially 300 in the 6th form making a total of circa 1200 pupils then the net capacity of 900 is, in my opinion, not the formal net capacity of the whole school. I suspect that the 900 figure is an artificial figure for years 7 to 11. If the school really has a net capacity of 900 and there are more like 1200 pupils in the school then they must be very crowded.
However the pupil number in years 7 to 11 do not support that there are 1200 pupils, so again I suspect that the net capacity figure is not an official figure. Try asking for the formal net capacity for the school in terms of the maximum net capacity, the minimum capacity and the agreed capacity and see what answers you get then.
The maximum capacity is the worked out figure based on measuring all appropriate rooms as to what is a reasonable maximum figure in terms of pupils in the school (including 6th form). The minimum figure should be 90% of the maximum figure. The agreed net capacity can be any figure between the minimum and maximum which makes sense in agreeing a PAN figure.

Indeed, as Teen says, you will need more than just "they can cope with one more", especially if there are multiple appeals.

You need to show the prejudice to him of not attending is greater than the prejudice to the school of admitting another child. Things like specialist clubs or subjects that suit his needs specifically, for example.

I hope you've got more than 'I think they have space'.
Have you got reasons why your son will be disadvantaged if he doesn't get let in? (And not just better results)

Ah yes that'll teach me to do this before coffee! Sorry.

Assuming that is what it is, and it's not the forecast for sept, it shows that the school can cope worth one more in a year because it is doing so now. It's worth probing how they have managed that but it suggests they could do so again.