Winchester, Westminster, or Eton?

I'm confused. If your son is 11, he'd be in year 6 so should have sat the pretests for entry at the end of last year. Or is he year 5?

If year 5 why not just apply to all 3 - your son can just sit the ISEB test once for all of them and see what happens?

I think this data is the year before www.nlcs.org.uk/news/2019-01-02/Eight-schools-send-more-to-Oxbridge-than-2-800-rivals but still a useful list. The numbers of course will vary by size of school too - fewer pupils fewer Oxbridge offers is likely in a lot of these very similar (academically) schools. (NLCS (girls, day) is the only school in the list any of my 5 have been to)

Westminster’s are higher if the unofficial figures I have heard are correct. But there are so many variables: school size, subject, initial selectivity, sixth form intake, etc that raw numbers don’t tell you much.

It’s the school that feels right for the child, and obviously the one that accepts the child.

This year Eton has 43 offers from Oxford,23 from Cambridge and 10 ivy league..not too shabby..

"The grant of arms to King’s College Cambridge followed the Eton grant word for word, except that three roses argent were substituted for the three lily-flowers".

Not much difference in the Arms of the two sister colleges.

PGWo, DS and DD is MumsNet shorthand for 'Dear (Darling) Son' and 'Dear/Darling Daughter'. So it follows, DM for example, would be Dear Mother, etc.

"For anyone who knows, how is the lifestyle different for the scholars and commoners in these three schools?"

I can only speak for one school - Eton - as my son was a KS (King's Scholar) there. I suppose there are a lot of similarities between Eton and Winchester in particular because Eton was founded in 1440 by Henry VI along the image of Winchester which was founded some 48 years earlier. So we are talking about medieval times here and I start from here because you said in an earlier post that you didn't quite know the history.

In fact, Henry VI "persuaded" a lot of masters from Winchester to come to Eton in its infancy and even roped in the best students, some 25 of them first but later 70, as the first students to start at Eton. His idea was to educate 70 scholars free of charge; all to be fed, housed and educated at his expense.

A slight deviation here: You mentioned your son (DS) has great designs to go to Cambridge. That being so, ETON is, and should be the natural and default choice out of the three schools mentioned here.

To continue with the Eton story, Henry VI went on a year later in 1441 to found the majestic King's College at Cambridge. This is one of the most impressive Colleges of all Cambridge University colleges! Following their (basic) education at Eton, the scholars were to walk into King's College Cambridge to further their education after which they were to become the King's advisors in all matters of state.

But after almost 600 years many things have changed. Unsurprisingly, these medieval schools still retain many of their past traditions but mostly of a ceremonial nature. At Eton there are still 70 KS's at any one time and they are distinguished from the rest of the 95% Oppidans (called Commoners at WinColl) of the school by wearing a gown over their school uniform.

The KS's live centrally at a house called, College right smack at the heart of Eton where everyone has his own private bedroom - as does each and every Oppidan who lives in the other 24 houses spread throughout the entire village of Eton; something no other boarding school in the !and can match!

KS's dine exclusively at the prestigious College Hall (not to be confused with School Hall) where past guests and diners included the likes of Elizabeth I, George Orwell, John Maynard Keynes, Harold Macmillan, to name but a few. The food served at College Hall will seriously embarrass the restaurants of 5-star hotels, believe me. My other half just couldn't wait to dine at College Hall each time we visited for official school events.

On a daily basis, there is absolutely not much difference between a scholar and an oppidan. The boys are streamed according to subject and academic ability. It is therefore, not surprising sometimes to see scholars of the same cohort and ability spread over three or four different classes mixed with oppidan. This is not to suggest the standard of scholars has fallen, rather the standard of some oppidans is as good as, if not better than, some scholars. The environment everywhere is super-competitive. The atmosphere is such that you don't know where the next competition is coming from, College or Oppidan Houses. Not ashamed to say DS had been caught many a time "with his pants down", so to speak, when he was pipped at the post for the top prize from unexpected corners. No hard feelings - you win some, you lose some! It encourages you to work even harder if you lose. DS had his fair shares in winning. So please do not assume Eton is not academic.

@PGWo - for completeness - DS is Son and DD is daughter.

Also, and this is in some ways silly advice and in some ways not , my son advised going to visit a university on a rainy day. On a beautiful sunny day - who would not fall in love with Cambridge. During the winter with one high st - it may feel different ( I do not mean to criticise there anyone who has a DC ( child @PGWo) at Cambridge or anywhere else , seriously I don't , just that a lovely city ( which Cambridge certainly is , very beautiful , or a beautiful campus can look different at different times of the year. DS's advice is always - choose the course and then visit those who offer it and see where you would feel most comfortable. Very basic advice , but I think sound . ( For reference DS doesn't have a blond hair on his head and is doing OK What were the chances of that ? )

@PGWO - Winchester does not have some umbilical cord to Oxford - it just doesn't . It pretty much hasn't since William of Wykham. As Shimy said ( and it is an academic school) many boys go on to American Universities or RG , lots choose Imperial / UCL / LSE just as an example or the Scottish universities & some even apply to Cambridge - some ( and I must whisper here ) go elsewhere or straight into a job.

I agree with others - far too early to be choosing a school as a route to university. Choose the best congenial school where your son will be happy & then if he does well he has a good few years to decide on the best course for him. His views may very very very well change.

If you need full boarding - think of that first. Many aren't. Many good and decent schools & 6th form colleges will be able to prepare a pupil for an Oxbridge entrance exam if that is what he ends up wanting - he may not.

Specifically re your question @PGWo - Winchester scholars and commoners have lessons all in the same places everything else also the same . Only difference is where they sleep ( so in house or in college) & where they eat ( same) ( in real terms).

@stucknoue -Winchester don't do rugby - sorry I could not resist that pedantry. So your DD may not have liked Winchester boys but it will be for other reasons.

@AtiaoftheJulia and @Needmoresleep and others - thank you for the blond link - that just made me laugh once more - I remember it. Also Statesmom's grasp on probability ( re 50% of Westminster go to Oxbridge - & my grasp of probability is tenuous - ha ha ) Quite nostalgic. But

The original statesmom Westminster thread

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/secondary/a1985236-Is-Westminster-School-the-best-school-on-Earth#44787056

In DDs year they had eight Harvard offers which she tells me was about the best from any school anywhere.

If you have a choice, and if you need full boarding you don’t, I would leave it up to the child. At its most basic Westminster is urban, Winchester is not. Where would your child be most comfortable?

Deciding on a university early on is not totally implausible, but I think it can lead to tunnel vision and it would be better to stay open-minded.

I decided I wanted to go to Oxford at the age of ten because I had seen a picture of it in a book. It was entirely my decision and nothing to do with my school or parents. I was very single minded and did end up going there - but afterwards wished I'd gone to another university which would probably have suited me better, rather than basing it on an idealised vision I had when I was ten.

Nothing to add to the schools discussion other than what has been said above. I think, as others have said, the idea of Eton as not particularly academic seems quite out of date (just based on exam results, league tables and the children getting in there now).

In my generation it was possible to get in without being brilliantly clever (whereas Winchester and Westminster seemed to have a more academic profile even then). But I think all the boys getting into these schools now are strong academically, and all the schools do extremely well in terms of exam results - it is more a case of the logistics which work for you and the ethos and school environment which suit your child and his temperament.

OP, if you have the time to follow the Oxbridge threads on the Higher Education section on MN you will see the quite harrowing journey parents of dc in the private education sector have been on this year. There is great Governmental pressure on Oxbridge & possibly now Durham to widen their intake of students, each year they have to prove to the Government how they have extended their reach across the UK. Offers are contextual which means they look at a range of factors before making an offer. In the next few years the private sector will turn more to the US for uni options. If you really want Cambridge a good state school is the straighter path to follow.

For old MNers - I did an advanced search on statesmom. She was back in 2017 asking where to buy the Eton uniform! I am beyond gobsmacked.

OP as your son is at a prep school, why:

do you not mention any pre-tests taken at the appropriate time?

has your prep head suggested Westminster when it is clearly unsuitable?

Also, if you have visited the senior schools, why:

do you quote your child's misunderstanding of how the schools operate as fact? Your comment about Winchester is incorrect. Your comment about Eton is strange and irrelevant. Your apparent reliance on a child's perception of facts, and your question on the difference in lifestyle of scholars and others seems odd given that such matters could have been clarified on any school visit. Or, before that, during the briefest conversation with your prep head.

Of course it may be that your son has only lately joined the prep - too late for early discussion and pre-tests?

I don't feel able to offer help because nothing you have said so far corresponds to anything I know about the schools in question.

Anyway, I think Eton would be a tough place if you have no interest in sport. Your son as you describe him sounds like a textbook Westminster or Winchester kid, the latter given your logistical constraints.

My oldest is at Westminster and they seem to have a shedload of overseas borders so I'm a bit confused about the previous comments about this not being suitable (but my son doesn't board so I couldn't really say). He's not sporty at all but has fallen into a musical crowd, they also read all the expected books e.g. Nausea/The Castle and sit around discussing these with their guitars and so on.

My youngest is a future Etonian and reads way less in favour of rugby, but is obsessed with maths and science.

My Ds has a friend who is at Cambridge...and shock horror went to the local comp!

OK. I feel pretty certain that my son already had sat the Eton and Winchester exam by this time in year six, he certainly sat the Westminster exam in November of year 6, but perhaps things have changed.

Good luck anyway.

Has it occurred to him/you that he might not get into Cambridge?

To clarify, I am not pressuring my son to go anywhere. He wants to go to Cambridge, which is why he is hesitant towards Winchester.

But surely you can see that he wants to go to Cambridge because... you visited Cambridge?