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BTEC versus A levels

58 replies

GaribaldiGirl · 08/03/2019 09:04

My son is in GCSE year. He has an above average IQ but has slow processing and a poor working memory - he therefore has always found schoolwork and exams harder than most. I think he’ll get 5/6s in most subjects.

I’m wondering whether BTECs are better suited to pupils like him. I believe they have more coursework.

Any advice appreciated, particularly from anyone with experience of BTECs. Most people I know seem very A level focused.

He’s going to move schools for sixth form and one of the ones we’ve looked at has a BTEC option. His current school is strictly A levels or Baccalaureate only.

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VelvetPineapple · 12/03/2019 21:09

In terms of the practices that is reported on this thread Pearson are really cracking down on it with far more vigour than ever before

Pleased to hear this @cricketballs3. It was atrocious practice and awful for the students - both those who worked hard and saw others getting the same grades without working, and also those whose final grades didn’t reflect their ability who subsequently struggled on a higher education course they should never have been directed towards.

As I said, one of the reasons I quit teaching was because it all seemed like a con and my employer regularly required me to commit professional misconduct that would have got me struck off if it was uncovered. Not relevant to the OP but I do wonder how FE centres will cope financially if they can no longer artificially boost the pass numbers? (and thereby boost their funding)

GaribaldiGirl · 12/03/2019 20:23

Thank you for that cricketballs.

I’m sold on a mix of A levels and BTECs. Now to persuade the boy himself.....

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TapasForTwo · 12/03/2019 20:13

"In terms of the practices that is reported on this thread Pearson are really cracking down on it with far more vigour than ever before"

They are doing this with A levels as well. Last year the coursework for the new spec geography A level had so few guidelines that even the teachers were floundering. They weren't allowed to offer the students any guidelines at all, and virtually the whole class had their coursework externally moderated.

cricketballs3 · 12/03/2019 19:53

Apologies in advance for this long post - but I would like to straighten the record in regards to BTECs against the earlier posts by @VelvetPineapple

Whilst I agree that the old specifications were ‘easy’ as in assignments could be written for each specific criteria, a lot of guidance given with no external assessments the new specifications are as far from “piss easy” as you can get.

All new spec subjects have 4 external assessments for the Ext Dip – these vary (depending on subject) in terms of type from traditional exams to high control supervised write up sessions with either a pre seen case study but unseen question to a 3 hour write up on an unknown question/case study.

They then also have large (between 90 and 120 Guided learning hours) mandatory coursework units together with additional optional coursework units.

The content of these units is often far more in difficulty than in A Level – for example in unit 3 for H&S the content has sections within it that is far beyond the A Level spec (we have a specialist Biology teacher this year leading that unit and she was stunned at the difficulty in some areas), for the business finance exam BTEC students are expected to memorise more accounting ratios than in the A Level papers.

The mandatory units have to be completed to a certain point, so the coursework units at a pass, the external units at a near pass (at least) with the total points from the units still being enough to achieve an overall pass – so whilst in the A Level you could flunk 1 paper altogether but gather enough from the other paper this is not the case with the new specification BTECS.

In terms of the practices that is reported on this thread Pearson are really cracking down on it with far more vigour than ever before. A lot more centres are subject to enhanced sampling which means that rather than just a couple of units and some paperwork being checked on the coursework units Pearson are visiting centres and want to see previous records of assessments, Internal verification and will interview students. Ofqual is currently proposing a change to centre assessments that will include 2 planned visits and an unannounced visit every year in order to stop centres like the one that @VelvetPineapple has experience of diminishing the delivery and assessment of BTECS and the value they have for students for whom this model suits far better than A Level.

As PP have pointed out - the nature of BTEC means that rather than 2 years of practice, cramming etc a BTEC student needs to be on the ball straight away, however this is also something that suits a lot of students as they prefer the constant work rather than the pressure of end of 2 year exams.

The funding issue you raised is not applicable to schools as we get paid for bums on seats, not results.

Op – now I am at my laptop I can offer more detail as to the BTEC Business! this is the specification which details the units and what has to be learnt. For the ext dip as well as the 7 mandatory units there are also 6 optional units to be covered which, as explained earlier are usually determined by the centre given expertise, however smaller centres may offer the students some choice.

Whilst I have ext dip students who have gone on to good universities/higher level apprenticeships the nature of the school that I work at has meant that the majority of my students are either doing the Dip (2 x A Level) or the ext cert (1 x A Level) together with A Levels and whilst I haven’t had L3 students with Oxbridge offers I have had previous students attend RG unis and have come out with excellent results – in fact a lot of my former students do claim that especially in their first year they are at an advantage against the purely A Level students as they are far more experienced in research group work, presentations etc.

Fazackerley · 12/03/2019 19:29

I'd say that's fair tbh. Dd got a couple of As, plenty of Bs and a C and she's doing 2 a levels and a BTEC, hopefully will end up with A, B and D* (equiv to A)

GaribaldiGirl · 12/03/2019 17:21

There’s an independent school near us which states that pupils getting an average of grade 6 in their GCSEs should be doing a mix of A levels and BTECS rather than straight A levels. Would people agree with that?

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GaribaldiGirl · 12/03/2019 13:57

Actually I shouldn’t say he definitely isn’t a Russell Group candidate. Pupils with learning difficulties are often on a different trajectory and will blossom later. He might yet surprise us Smile. He certainly works harder than his more academic siblings.
The challenge is always maintaining self esteem - and I think BTECs sound refreshingly different with a less exam focussed approach

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Fazackerley · 12/03/2019 13:51

Ok I think you are exaggerating a bit. I know a lot of students (through my work) that have gone to uni with Btecs and done really well. You sound hugely over dramatic about it.

VelvetPineapple · 12/03/2019 13:50

That’s not good, basically it’s cheating

GaribaldiGirl it’s one of the main reasons I quit teaching in the FE sector, because it was about £ and not about actually teaching. I was required to do things that went against my professional standards because my boss said we need the funding therefore all BTEC students must pass even if they’re not capable. It was unfair on the students who were capable when others were being boosted to the same level. And many of the “boosted” students subsequently failed at university, which was also unfair on them.

bruffin · 12/03/2019 13:41

He definitely isn’t a Russell group candidate but I’d like to think he’ll go to university
Dd is at a Russell Group uni with a btec. She got 3 D*s IN health and social care.

Her course has just one exam in the first year and that is it for the whole course.

Fazackerley · 12/03/2019 13:15

Meant to add she is doing 2 a levels as well and predicted Bs, and she wouldn't say her btec has been easier just different

Fazackerley · 12/03/2019 13:08

Ok, well dd hasn't had any of that. Can't speak for the rest of her class. I don't think kids that go to uni with Btecs struggle particularly, probably because they tend to be accepted as entry to more vocational courses anyway.

Fazackerley · 12/03/2019 13:05

Not sure - on the uni course dd is doing exams are only part of the overall mark (like btecs) so there is less pressure than a levels when the exams are all or nothing.

TapasForTwo · 12/03/2019 12:30

How do BTEC students cope with university exams if they would have struggled with A level exams?

GaribaldiGirl · 12/03/2019 12:29

That’s not good, basically it’s cheating.

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VelvetPineapple · 12/03/2019 12:26

Velvet How up to date is your info? The rules on assistance on BTECs have tightened up a lot in the past 4 years. You don't get 'multiple opportunities' any more

I last taught BTEC in 2017. Friends still teach it and apparently nothing has changed. “Officially” you don’t get multiple opportunities any more. But the fact is that a lot of students wouldn’t pass if they didn’t get multiple opportunities and the college needs them to pass in order to get the government funding. So teachers were told to throw away unsuccessful attempts and mark the final successful attempt as if it was the first attempt. If necessary we gave the students the correct answers to copy out.

All that counts is what’s in the coursework folder at the end of the day. Nobody knows what happens in the classroom. We only paid lip service to the “rules”. Our priority was to ensure every student passed so the college received the money for every student so it could pay the bills.

GaribaldiGirl · 12/03/2019 11:07

This is all really helpful BTW. Thanks so much everyone.

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TeenTimesTwo · 12/03/2019 10:21

Velvet How up to date is your info? The rules on assistance on BTECs have tightened up a lot in the past 4 years. You don't get 'multiple opportunities' any more.

Fazackerley · 12/03/2019 10:14

The school/college has a choice of units (so they can pick the easiest ones)

although plenty of unis want you to to list the units that you took and often specify certain ones that are more rigorous.

Fazackerley · 12/03/2019 10:12

They are 'piss easy' compared to A levels if you are the kind of person who doesn't cope with exams very well but works hard and is good at coursework.

It's not THAT easy to get a distinction*

DD is doing a mixture of both a levels and Btec

The work at uni is much more like a detailed BTEC than an A level tbh - lots of coursework as well as some exams.

Yes, she will get a D in her BTEC and it is extremely unlikely she would have got an A in the same subject at A level, but so what? The unis she's applied to don't care - she's not looking at top RG unis although I do know several kids who have done the Extended Diploma with triple distinction star who have ended up at RG unis.

unexpectedgifts · 12/03/2019 09:26

My eldest son did superbly at GCSEs, he started 6th form studying Maths, Applied Maths, Physics and IT.

He struggled, not with the content but with the teaching methods and his teachers.

He dropped out and found a good course doing level 3 BTEC in computing.

He did so well, achieved distinctions, he loved the teaching methods and assessment process.

But, and it's a sad but, he wasn't able to apply for the Russell Group university he wanted as they only consider A levels for the course he wanted to take. Despite him having the points they required.

VelvetPineapple · 12/03/2019 09:15

I’m liking the idea more and more, despite some describing them as ‘piss easy’

Piss easy is a good thing for the student. Compared to A level, a BTEC student will get a higher grade with less stress, get into university more easily, and have more opportunities for their future. I’ve seen A level students who could easily have scored top grades at BTEC scoring Bs and Cs at A level. And BTEC students who would barely score Ds and Es at A level were scoring the top Distinction grades at BTEC. Exams were introduced into BTEC precisely because they were too easy and it was thought necessary to bring them more in line with A levels. They are still ridiculously easy in comparison though.

VelvetPineapple · 12/03/2019 09:07

You don’t have to score a Distinction in every BTEC unit to get a Distinction overall. There’s some leeway as long as you pass every unit.

You’re supported to complete assessed work in the classroom over a period of years and you have multiple attempts to get it right. Unlike A level where you only practise in the classroom, the entire grade hinges on your performance on the exam day and you only get one crack at it.

It’s easy to identify a failing student early and put support in place. Unlike A level where failing students often don’t get picked up until they fail the exam at the very end, by which point it’s too late.

The school/college has a choice of units (so they can pick the easiest ones). Unlike A level where there’s one syllabus and they have no control over it.

If you’re at a FE college they will make sure you pass because the government only funds your place if you pass. Unlike A level where they get paid regardless of what grade you score. They need the money for every student so they make sure that every student passes. Schools are different obviously.

GaribaldiGirl · 12/03/2019 09:02

Cricketballs - thanks! I thought externals meant exams but I’m now guessing you mean externally marked.
I may persuade him to do one or two single BTECs mixed with an A level. I need to look into how these are assessed too.
One of my friends daughters is doing a level 3 business BTEC and she thinks it is fantastic. Her daughter never flourished with an exam style education but is now predicted high enough grades to go to a good middle ranking University.

I’m liking the idea more and more, despite some describing them as ‘piss easy’.

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TeenTimesTwo · 12/03/2019 08:25

BTECs are much easier than A levels and there is heaps more support available to complete the assessed work. They are piss easy.

Not in my DD's experience.

There was support to get the Pass (E grade equivalent) but very limited support on how to achieve higher levels. With A levels you get decent feedback on your essays - where you are going wrong, model answers, etc You get nearly 2 years to perfect your technique.
With BTECs if it takes you a bit of time to 'get' what is required you're stuffed as you have already missed out on higher grades in the early units which caps your overall score. Especially if the college is working on 3 units in parallel so you have submitted stuff for all 3 units before you get any feedback.
Some of DD's tasks were so poorly defined she couldn't see what was required. The data for some research needed didn't seem to exist.