Upset for my nephew and angry with my sister

I’m sorry OP for your DN and hope it works out. You sound like a lovely aunt. I hope you don’t mind, I have a question for another PP in relation to what they said upthread.

@HotpotLawyer is that definitely the case, that offers from waiting list schools aren’t made until after the acceptance deadline? What if someone rejects their offer before the deadline- does county not act on that (ie offer to someone else where that school was a higher preference) straight away?

I ask because we’re in the (enviable) position of being very happy with either of our top two preferences. We were offered the second (as expected). I will of course accept that offer. But the offer email said, in bold text, that 1. We would automatically be on the continuing interest list for our first preference school and 2. To tell them IMMEDIATELY if we wanted to come off it because if we are offered the higher pref school our offer for the other school will automatically be cancelled. No mention of things not happening until after acceptance deadline - although they mention continuing interest ‘runs’.

So I had thought good, decision made, everyone happy. And now it seems we still have a decision to make - it would be good to know if it has to be immediate or if we have a bit of breathing space. Thanks.

I can never understand why (barring faith schools and selective grammar schools) "Some schools offer a number of places based on particular aptitude." That being the case, it's a form of selection - aptitude or no aptitude - which again I don't understand why it is allowed in the first place.

It is totally not justified to call OP's sister "stupid". Ignorant, maybe, and even that I use the word advisedly. I've in the past and even presently tried to advise acquaintances of the comp!ex issues and difficulties of secondary transfer and to prepare in good time, i.e. many years ahead and from the body language and attitude I get in return, I knew these people still "don't get it" and often times I have them back asking for advice when it's all over and too late.

Sorry, punta, that was aimed more at others than you! I feel very sorry for your sister, even though she's been silly. I know someone IRL who has done something similar and lost out on a place, and I feel v sorry for them too. With the criticism of schools, though, I do think it's sometimes that parents misunderstand what we say, rather than that we say the wrong thing (not always!). I'm in admissions, and my mantra at open days is always "list your three schools in the order that you truly prefer them". But I do also specifically tell people to put us first (only if they ask further questions about how to secure a place), because it's true! We have sometimes had cases where parents have preferred our school, but put their nearer school first because they want to make sure they've got a definite place somewhere, so put us second, and are then disappointed that they are given their local school and not us - because they haven't understood the preference system. So I will say to parents - if we are your first choice then put us first, but include your local school second or third. That's not game-playing, it's just how the system works - but it's possible that some parents infer from that that there is some game to be played around first/second etc, or infer that the schools know where they've put them, however much we explicitly tell them that that's not the case. If there's a clearer way of explaining it then I would genuinely love to hear it!

“Can I go slightly off at a tangent and ask why would you get a scholarship for a state school?”

Some schools offer a number of places based on particular aptitude. There is a limit to the number of these places they are allowed to award, and they are often music but I have seen sport and language, too.

For state schools it has to be ‘aptitude’ not ‘achieved’ to give everyone a fair chance whether or not they have been able to have music lessons, for example.

The places may come with offer of free music lessons etc.

It’s not that complicated, but there’s a hell of a lot of misinformation about, often peddled by people who should know better (looking at you, headteachers).

It would be great if there was some way it could be made that you couldn’t submit your form without your nearest banker being included somewhere. Obviously would never work in reality (Black holes where there is no clear banker, can’t guarentee admission even to the most likely school, people who have more than one realistic option somewhere etc.), but would go a long way to help, I think!

When my kids' years went through this, everyone who failed to get Into the local comp and went on a waiting list, ended up with a place. Mainly due to people with places achieving success on the waiting list for other schools, or opting for faith schools or private schools. There'll be a lot of movement between now and the summer.

Can I go slightly off at a tangent and ask why would you get a scholarship for a state school?

I think a lot of the problem comes from people using the word 'choices'. You are not making a choice - you are expressing a preference. And yes, I guess it's not that simple in that it does make sense to include a 'banker' school which might not really be in your top three preferred schools - but on the other hand, surely it's not that complicated to understand that if you only put down three oversubscribed schools that you don't live very near, there's a high chance you won't get into any of them of them?

You are a great aunty, Punta.

What a stupid woman. I used all 6 choices.

Punta, it won’t make any difference whether your sister accepts now or 20 mins before the deadline for acceptance. No waiting list places will be offered until after the acceptance date and they re-shuffle all the lists.

You can go on as many waiting lists as you like.

@bertrandRussell exactly, it doesn't help where people say just choose three schools and put them in preference order. We've got a few locally that fill up within catchment area so out of areas have no chance but still put it down

Just overheard that the parents of three year 6 children haven't done their applications yet or have messed up in some way and only realised now; they've been told to act quickly but seemed to think the primary school staff could work miracles and sort it all out for them.

“You simply put down 3 schools, in order of preference, that you would like your child to attend if the spaces are availabl“
Well, it’s not quite as simple as that- for example- what if you put 3 schools you have no realistic chance of getting in to?

I couldn't believe when I did this last year (DC now Y7) how many highly educated (MC) parents round here didn't quite get it . . . If their DC had done well in an 'aptitude' or 'scholarship' test (this is London where such things abound) they thought they had to put that school in first place (out of 6) otherwise they would lose any chance of place and scholarship. They simply did not believe me when I tried to explain the school won't know which position you have placed them in and you'll still get your scholarship place if it's your highest placed offer . . . You can have a speculative attempt at a school you'd like even more, without endangering it; you have 6 spaces on the form precisely so that you've room for a couple of unlikely longshots!
London may be particularly complex but my impression was that the majority of parents end up applying without fully understanding . . . Some of course get lucky anyway.

How exactly do the middle class game the system? I know a few people who'd be very grateful for that information.

LAs could get rid of the one school choice by not accepting an online form unless more than one school is selected, that's got to be a fairly simple fix which would eliminate that problem in an instant.

Oh for goodness sake. There is nothing complicated about the school allocation system in this country and no one, middle class or not, can play the system. You simply put down 3 schools, in order of preference, that you would like your child to attend if the spaces are available. You may get into one of those schools or you may not. I don't understand the confusion at something that is so simple to understand.

And as another poster said, the problems arise from other parents thinking they can play the system and spreading that myth. Any responsible parent would research the process to understand the system rather than rely on word of mouth at School pick up time.

Our LA for example says this on the website:

Your school preferences

You can name up to six schools.
You must name the schools in order of your preference (this information is not shared with schools so does not disadvantage your application). If your child can be offered a place at more than one of your named schools, the offer will be for the one that is listed highest on your preferences.

*We recommend that you:
Name six schools if you can.
Name schools that your child is most likely to be offered a place at.

This will increase your chances of being offered a place at one of your named schools.*

Naming fewer schools on your list of preferences does not increase the chance of you being offered a place at one of those schools. Places are allocated according to the admission criteria of the schools, not how many schools you have named. If you name fewer than six, you increase the risk of being offered a place at a school that you have not named, which may be further away.

Check each school's website or our admissions booklets for the admission criteria of each school to see how places are allocated, and how many children applied and were offered a place last year. Many children will be offered a place under the distance criteria (based on how far they live from the school). You can see the maximum distance that schools offered to last year in our admissions booklets (but note this is only an indication – the maximum distance will be different this year depending on how many children apply to each school).

Whilst we have a responsibility to make a school place available to each Surrey child, it may not be at one of your named preferences or at your closest school.

The information is there. If you read it and don't understand it, you have plenty of time to ask the admissions team.

Is it purely to make it easier for middle class parents to game the system

I don't understand this comment, why would a middle class parent be able to game the system any more than anyone else? And it's hardly complicated you simply list your schools in order of preference.

The issue comes in when people don't do that. Like the ops sister, as then the child is found a place at one with spaces as there is no preference to go on.